About

I wish to remain anonymous and let my words speak for them self without the bias of knowing the author. I am a Christian that happens to be a lesbian. One was chosen (my Christian identity) and one was not (my sexual orientation.) My main mission is to demystify the confusion of “homosexuality” in the Bible and let the rarely heard alternative perspective be known (note my first entry at http://gaychristians.2freedom.com). Many Christians are unaware that an alternate translation exists WITHIN the Scriptures that does not condemn homosexuality as a whole in the Bible. I also aspire to spread the loving word of Christ to the gay and lesbian community who were left out due to our society. I have extraordinary compassion for gays and lesbians who have struggled with religious persecution, but hope that they can come to know God as loving rather than run from Him forever due to the group of innocently misinformed Christians who persicute them. I want to bridge the gap of these two groups with knowledge! If only I had a bigger podium to accomplish this… Please spread the word. I sincerely thank you for your interest and pray that the Holy Spirit guides you through these readings.

89 Responses to About

  1. I’m glad to see this website. You may get more exposure if you start a Facebook page and post stuff there pointing over here. I’m told there are 30 million+ GLBTs on Facebook.

  2. Ned Flaherty says:

    Here’s a side-by-side comparison showing what all 13 presidential candidates plan for America’s 31 million LGBT citizens:

    http://www.marriageequality.org/Election2012

  3. Erika says:

    Hello,

    I stumbled across your blog when I searched for “Christian Lesbians San Diego”. I am currently in the process of trying to reconcile my sexuality with my faith and as part of that process, I am looking for a similarly-minded group, club, community, etc. to participate in. If you know of any great resources in our area, please feel free to e-mail me. Thanks so much.

    • Hi there Erika!
      Hopefully you will come back and check this for a reply, as I don’t know your email address or I would have gladly written you. I suggest you go to http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/united_states/us_california.htm and go to a gay affirming church. I found 28 in San Diego which is a lot! Some churches are just accepting, where as others have congregations that have majority gay and lesbian followers. I suggest going around and finding a church you are comfortable in. This made a huge difference for me. Another great resource of support is http://www.gaychristians.net They have sections for local areas in their message board section, so I really recommend you join. If you have any more questions, please feel free to leave me your email address and I will write you. If you don’t want it posted for the world to see, just tell me who you are again and I will just save your email address for myself and not approve the comment and trash it so you stay confidential. Anyway, I hope this helps! Good luck and God bless you!

  4. Kim says:

    This is very interesting. I read your post about verses that supposedly condemned homosexuality, but I’m not sure how I feel about it all. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just don’t want to “jump on board” right away. I hope I explained that right /:

    Also, I was wondering about the concept of bisexuality? Pansexuality? Does it mention that in the bible? I ask, because I’m 16 and ever since I was little, I have liked both men and women, and if given a choice, I would NOT choose to be this way. If you don’t mind, I would love your advice because you seem to be very educated and understanding about all this(:

  5. Hannah J says:

    I appreciate your fire for wanting to learn more about what the Bible says about homosexuality. However, I think that you are moving farther rather than closer to the truth.

    First, I noticed that you are using the NASB. You may not have known, but the NASB removed 2,886 words from the original Greek; which in turn affected 356 doctrinal passages. For instance, in Luke 4:4 the NASB omits “but by every word of God” from the original verse. What I’m getting at here, is that the Bible that you are using is corrupt and could be affecting the way that you interpret scripture.(http://www.websiteforgod.net/Blog/Entries/2011/2/14_NASB_Exposed..html)

    Second, I saw that you said that the reason that Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed was not due to their homosexual lifestyles but due to their wanting to rape angels. However, in Genesis 18 the Lord had already decided that he was going to destroy the 2 cities before the angels were even sent there. Angels in the Bible always appear as very attractive men. The men of Sodom and Gomorrha saw the beautiful men and lusted after them. This is unnatural. This is why in Jude 1:7 the Bible says,”Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

    Fornication means,”The incontinence or lewdness of unmarried persons”(according to the Webster 1828 english dictionary, which more accurately defines the words of the KJV from the time in which it was written, http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/search/word,fornication) They gave themselves to fornication. That was the first thing mentioned. Next is the strange flesh. You claim it is in reference to the angels that the men of Sodom and Gomorrha went after. However, as I said earlier, God had already made up His mind that Sodom and Gomorrha were going to be destroyed BEFORE the angels went there. God knew that the only righteous person in the two cities was Lot. When Abraham asked if God would spare them for 10 righteous people, God knew He was going to have to destroy them because there wasn’t that many in both cities. Secondly, the men of Sodom and Gomorrha only went after the angels once, and they failed to have relations with the angels. It’s not like they were raping angels all the time. They saw two very handsome men in the streets and followed them to Lot’s house. They had no idea they were angels. All they knew was that they were attractive men. How could “strange flesh” be in reference to angels when it only happened once, they didn’t know that they were angels, they never had intercourse with them anyway, and God had already decided to destroy the two cities before it happened?

    In Genesis, God defines marriage as between a man and a woman, and they become one flesh. Jesus Christ reinforces this definition in the Gospels. Paul also states the same definition. Biblical marriage is not between two members of the same sex. That is fornication, as has already been defined. Fornication, of course, is a sin. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 says, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither FORNICATORS, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor EFFEMINATE, nor ABUSERS OF THEMSELVES WITH MANKIND, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

    Homosexuality is fornication. Homosexual men are typically effeminate. Abusers of themselves with mankind, in the original Greek, means “one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual.” (according to http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G733&t=KJV)

    The thing we have to realize is what the Lord Jesus Christ said: “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake.” (Luke 21:17) Also, it is written: “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” (James 4:4) The truth of the matter is that supporting homosexuality puts you right in lockstep with the world, and in opposition to God’s Word. Anyone that preaches the need to repent of homosexuality is instantly a “hater” or a “bigot”, even though they are speaking what the Bible clearly states. No confusion. They are at odds with the world, because the world supports homosexuality. God does not. The main areas where homosexuality was widely accepted in the ancient world were Rome, Greece, Egypt, etc. PAGAN nations. What we as Christians need to do is “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,” (2 Corinthians 6:17)

    I will be praying for you, ma’am, and I earnestly hope and pray that God will lead you toward the truth, and will cause the cloud of confusion to lift from your mind. The Lord Jesus Christ is fully capable of taking away ANY thought, ANY action, ANY sin… if you trust Him to do it.

    “But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26)

    • Hi Hannah,
      Thanks for taking the time to write your comment to me. I know this is a really long reply, but I would be grateful if you are able to examine my response (when you have time to read it carefully.) I do appreciate you writing to me because it shows a genuine caring for my soul. Thank you also for your prayers, as I always long to seek for the truth in God’s Word! In doing so, I have found more and more that makes the anti-homosexual view of the Bible shakey at best.

      First, you mentioned that I am using the NASB. I use several different translations within my blog to get certain points across. (I personally prefer and trust the King James.) But in my studies, I have looked into the original Hebrew and Greek translations, so this is the basis from which I have drawn my conclusions. Also, context is everything. I know you haven’t had a chance to read my whole blog (and I don’t expect you to), but I have already addressed many of the things you have written about here in separate posts.

      I read all of the links that you gave me and found the one about the translations very fascinating. I did a little more research and found that the King James takes from different Hebrew and Greek manuscripts than most of the modern translations. This is why they have left parts out. Not to deceive people in English, but because those other “originals” didn’t have those quotes in it. I have since gone to check all the verses that appear to condemn homosexuality again, and both Hebrew and Greek translations for the King James and new translations are the same for these particular verses, so it has not had any affect on my studies.

      I am fully aware that God had decided to destroy the city of Sodom BEFORE the angels came. I do not think that God destroyed the city ONLY due to the attempted gang rape of angels. We can see in the Bible that God gives many reasons for destroying the city (aside from any form of homosexual sex acts.) Ezekiel 16:49 “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.” Although God had already decided to destroy the city before the angels came, Jude 1:7 clearly speaks AFTER this event had occurred, so to mention “strange flesh” could in fact be referring to the past event of the angels (or bestiality) because it means “going after someone not of the same nature or class.” Saying that this means gay people is illogical because two men or even two women ARE of the same nature or class, unlike a human and an angel which are in a different class and nature as natural beings. Ironically, the Greek word for “strange” in this verse is “heteros.”

      What is missing in your view of Sodom is the cultural and Biblical context as to the motive behind the famous act with the men of Sodom. YES the angels showed themselves as men (but where did you get the impression that angels shown as human men were always “very attractive?” I can’t find anything in the Bible about that, so it may be based on false assumption.) So the part that they were angels rather than men may be besides the point, but it’s worth mentioning. It is the attempted gang rape that deserves a second look when we translate the story. Culturally, there were inhospitable cities that existed in Biblical times that frequently raped foreigners and travelers as forms of power, punishment and/or payment (similar to modern-day prison rape.) These (primarily) heterosexual males would engage in homosexual gang rape AND heterosexual gang rape. Males were generally the first target, as they had more value in these times. If a traveling foreigner came under the shelter of a residents roof, a hospitable resident would try to protect this from happening with the males, but would often have to compromise by offering up women instead to avoid being murdered. This wasn’t about sexual orientation. Why would anyone offer a woman to a bunch of gay guys? If you think this is outrageous, please carefully read Judges 19-20 to see a nearly identical story of attempted gang rape of a foreign man, and the outcome that shows the violent intentions that the men of Sodom had. The only difference was that there were angels to blind the men of Sodom before they broke down the door, so no one ended up hurt. Here you can see the verses of Genesis 19 and Judges 19 side by side:
      https://moanti.wordpress.com/2013/07/07/the_bible_verse_most_christians_dont_like_to_quote/

      So looking in the cultural lense while also taking into consideration the Biblical context (Judges 19 teaches us how to look at Genesis 19), we can see that these were not a bunch of gay men that wanted to have sex with attractive angels/men, but a city practicing hostile gang-rape upon strangers.

      I really don’t know how you view homosexuality. But if you do realize that it is naturally inborn like heterosexuality and is not a choice, than you would understand that it would be impossible to have an entire city of only gay males (young and old). It is also outlandish to think that EVERY gay person was attracted to these 2 individuals. That is outlandish as thinking that every woman in an entire city is attracted to the exact same man (or every man.) People have different tastes and views of what is attractive. To even dream up that gay people are this ridiculous that they would all want to do this makes misinformed heterosexuals unfairly look down upon gay people from the start. If the men of Sodom were trying to have sex with the angles against their will, than this is attempted gang rape. Plain and simple. If it had been a group of men all wanting have sex with a woman against her will, what would YOU call it?

      The word “fornication” (pornea) in our modern culture has made its meaning different from its original authors throughout the years. So to say that homosexuality is included cannot be certain. I see that you site it as meaning “incontinence or lewdness of unmarried persons.” You gave a link to this dictionary, and it gives away what you left out. Even in the first definition, it states that a married man just TALKING to an unmarried woman is formication…. You must realize that there is more to “formication” than unmarried sex. If one looks at all the sexual uses of “pornea” in Scripture, one will see that it can apply outside of marriage (in only one Biblical example) as well as inside of marriage. Not only that, but it can be applied as an idolatrous practice, which we know the residents of Sodom were fully engaged in. There are also several verses that fornication is spoken about hand in hand with talking about forbidden foods (meat to idols, eating blood, strangled animals), which is strange. So this is not just sex outside of a marriage commitment and can’t be used synonymously with homosexuality.

      To say that we know more now than others knew before is like a child saying they know more than their parents. It’s like saying we know more about the Civil War than those who lived through the Civil War. We simply cannot know more and we cannot apply an understanding of our modern world to ancient writers. To do so gives into mistranslation. We must strive to see from the authors point of view by looking at ALL surroundings in their time. Then we can see it more accurately from their point of view, but can’t claim to see it perfectly. The only true clarity comes through reading the Word in prayer and given by God’s knowledge to the reader through true Spiritual discernment (not personal projection.)

      You conclude that “effeminate” and “abusers of themselves with mankind” BOTH mean homosexuals? Why the repetitive speech in the sin list? So it means that homosexuals and homosexuals won’t inherit the kingdom of God?

      You said “homosexual men are typically effeminate.” This shows me that you have not met very many gay people (or you have unknowingly and assumed the non-effeminate men were straight.) Yes there are effeminate gay men, but there are also a multitude of very manly masculine gay men. So is it only the effeminate ones going to hell? Likewise, you may be under the impression that lesbian women are typically masculine. I would bet my life savings that if you met me face to face, you would never guess that I am a lesbian. I have actually met more feminine “straight looking” lesbians than I have met super manly ones. So this is just a simple stereotype reinforced by the mainstream media.

      The word from the King James “effeminate” comes from the Greek word “malakos.” It is used only 3 times in Scripture. Once in the verse you stated, and also twice by Jesus to refer to “soft” clothing of the rich. So malakos simply means “soft.” Taking from the context of Jesus’ words, perhaps this has to do with the materialistic rich? Some believe it has to do with “spiritually soft” or lazy people. But what has most been suggested is that it has to do with the adult men who molested young boys. Think about it. If gay males are not always effeminate, who is? Pre-pubescent boys ALWAYS have effeminate (or soft) features before they grow facial hair and their voice becomes deep. This is worth consideration, otherwise child molestation is nowhere found to be condemned in the Bible. Doesn’t this make you uncomfortable?

      Secondly, you said “abusers of themselves with mankind” means “a male lying with a male as one lies with a female.” The interlinear dictionary states this as definition, but this is clearly misleading. The word is “arsenokoites” which is a word used twice in the Bible by Paul and only a few times in Ancient Greek literature after Paul’s time in ways that could not mean homosexuals. It is a compound word from the words “arsen” and “koitai” which are the words “male” and “bed.” For centuries the church (verbally) translated this to mean masturbation. But arsenokoites is “male” (singular) and “beds” (plural) which does NOT indicate 1 male in a single bed (masturbation), nor 2 males in one bed (gay sex), but a male in MORE than 1 bed. Many translations do not use “homosexuals” for this verse, but “male prostitutes” which makes more sense because it is a male in many beds and it is consistent with the shrine prostitution practices of the time. Either way, this indicates promiscuity which is outside God’s plan of a marriage commitment.

      So when the Bible dictionary says that the word arsenokoites is derived from “a male lying with a male as one lies with a female,” this is only based upon guess work for one reason. Looking at the Greek version of the Old Testament, the verses in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 use “male” in the sentence as well as the word for “bed.” So “arsen” and “koitai” are in these verses, but what is failed to be openly recognized is that the words “arsen” and “koitai” are ALSO in 37 other verses together in Scripture that could not possibly have anything to do with males sleeping with other males. So to say that arsenokoites is 100% from the Leviticus verses and means homosexuals is not provable and clearly misleading.

      Also, in the original Hebrew, these Levitical verses do NOT use comparative language to say “as one” lies with a female or “as with” a woman or “as one does” with a woman. It does not compare men with men to men having sex with women at all. These are “filler words” used in all modern translations based on the first translators guess. The comparative words of “as one” and “as with” DO exist in Hebrew and are used within the Bible in other verses, but they were NOT used in the Levitical verses. If you study an interlinear Bible that has direct translation, these words are missing because they don’t exist in any original text. But if you read from an interlinear Bible where you can click on an English word to translate it into Hebrew, “as one” is sometimes shown as part of the phrase “as one lies” but the Hebrew word is “mishkab” which simply means “bed” (the same word for “arsen”) NOT “as one lies.” If you’d like to see the Hebrew context of this verse, I’ve got a great study that shows all the word uses and it may shock you. The word for “to lie with” in Hebrew when referring to a male with a male in Leviticus is “shakab.” Every single sexual use in the ENTIRE Bible using the word “shakab” is in the context of rape, coerced sex or sex by deception. So it is highly likely that Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 are stating that men should not rape other men or men should not coerce sex on other men (as was done in shrine prostitution ritual.) So the only way that shakab means simple mutual sex without any deception, coercion or rape is if it is the ONLY instance in the entire Bible with a different definition, which is unlikely. https://moanti.wordpress.com/2013/02/16/thou-shalt-not-lie-with-a-man-exploring-the-sexual-use-of-the-hebrew-word-shakab-to-lie-with-in-scripture/

      Other than rape, male prostitution is at the heart of these alternate translations for many different reasons. I don’t have the room to describe all of it here. But what I can say is that male prostitution was rampant in Biblical times and it was associated with idolatry in PAGAN nations. The male shrine prostitute would act as an intercessor to their idol gods and the male idol worshiper (usually heterosexual by nature) would insert himself to give a seed sacrifice. This can be seen in Leviticus 18:21 and Leviticus 20:1-5 right near the famous anti-gay verses. Also, Romans 1 goes into great detail about the idol worshipers who worshiped created things (in the form of images, i.e. idols) rather than the Creator. Consequently, they exchanged their natural function for that which was unnatural to them. They exchanged worshiping God and committed marital relationships for worshiping idols and having sex with shrine prostitutes. (Note that there were also female shrine prostitutes who would work as intercessors, but they had anal intercourse with the men [to avoid pregnancy], not lesbian sex.) So yes, male homosexual sex acts were committed in these instances, but they were in the context of rape or idol prostitution. This is far from a committed life-long covenant between a same-gender couple. If a heterosexual male gang-raped women and had ritual heterosexual sex as an idol worship practice, would you conclude to condemn all committed heterosexual relationships?

      You state that friendship with the world is enmity with God. I absolutely agree. But just because (some of) the world has now come to a greater acceptance and understanding of gay relationships does not mean that the acceptance of it is “of the world,” therefore bad. If you would have only looked back 30 years ago, gay relationships were widely unaccepted and misunderstood by the world, so this cannot be a defining factor of what we would consider as “of the world.” As you know, the world used to widely accept slavery and used the Bible to support it. Now the world does not accept it. Does this mean that the world is now wrong on that too and should go back to putting people in bondage? The abolishment of (most) slavery worldwide would be seen by most as a good thing that the world has done. This is progress. Cannot the same be true of treating committed gays with more equality? Or does supporting a mutual loving committed lifelong partnership have to be a sign of doomsday…

      As far as what the Bible states about marriage, if you look at it as a blueprint, the MAIN point is an exclusive commitment or covenant between 2 individuals and God. Throughout Scripture, anything outside of this blueprint of commitment is condemned. Marriage is more than a public wedding recognized by a church, state or country. It has long since been a personal covenant of commitment between a couple and God long before any legal license was required.

      Of course in the very beginning of creation there were only male and female. If it had been male/male or female/female, there would be no procreation. In the beginning of time, Adam and Eve’s offspring had to commit incest. Men had multiple wives. (The only reason women didn’t have multiple husbands is because women get pregnant usually one baby at a time, but men could get multiple women pregnant at the same time, thus having more children.) Procreation was essential for building the population in those days, but it is no longer mandatory as it was commanded in the Old Testament to Adam and Eve. If to “be fruitful and multiply” still applies, than any infertile man or woman who has sex with their spouse is committing a sinful act. As you can see, through time Gods’ natural design changed based upon population needs. It went from incest to multiple wives to singular marriage. Wouldn’t it make logical sense that monogamous gay relationships (and infertile couples) could be part of Gods’ natural design for the purpose of slowing down the booming population?

      Many translations have changed Scripture to be more “gender friendly” by using “he and she” or “people” rather than only “he” or “men.” Scripture was written this way originally because the ones who read and interpreted the Bible in that time were exclusively males. Does this mean that ONLY males are part of God’s commands when it uses “he” or “men?” (Example: “I will teach you how to be fishers of men.”) In the same way, the writers spoke (primarily) of heterosexual partnerships because heterosexuals were (and still are) in the majority. Aside from this, some argue that David and Jonathan were in a marriage covenant for a number of reasons. https://moanti.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/gaychristians/#12

      The Bible also does not speak about hermaphrodites (those naturally born with BOTH male and female sexual organs) which are also a minority. Who are they allowed to marry? If they have attractions and the capability to fall in love with both males and females, are they condemned as bisexual or are they considered straight? I believe that Biblical marriage is a blueprint for a lifelong monogamous commitment and applies to same-gender couples as well as hermaphrodites.

      God is a lot more creative than many of us give Him credit. I can’t imagine how a mutual love between two life-long committed people could be considered sinful. It just doesn’t seem to go with the whole stream of all the other sins listed in the Bible. All sin causes harm in some way to the person or other people. But the expression of love itself within mutual commitment does not cause harm. So how can this form of love be a sin? If the main argument is that it is “unnatural” because of the way our bodies are made to “fit,” please read this and be forever changed in the way you look at how God created the male and female body: https://moanti.wordpress.com/2012/08/25/biological-evidence-that-proves-gay-and-lesbian-sex-is-not-unnatural/

      On a side note, there is a particular type of relationship that Jesus harshly condemns (Matthew 5:32, 19:9) that the church rarely condemns at all. Jesus condemns divorce (except when pornea has been committed), AND states that if either partner REMARRIES, they are committing ADULTERY. So if their 2nd marriage is an adulterous relationship in the eyes of God, why aren’t these relationships condemned by (most of) the church? Adultery is mentioned many more times than the 6 verses that appear to condemn homosexuality. The Bible says nothing against committed gay relationships. The word “homosexuality” has only been around a little over 100 years and placed in the Bible in 1946. A gay sexual orientation is a lot more than just a sex act. Committed lifelong partnerships between the same gender are based on mutual love, trust and commitment just like heterosexual relationships. It is not all about sex as many Christians seem to paint gays to be, especially using the Sodom story in your way of translation. We are a lot more alike in our relationships than you realize. If all gays were promiscuous sex addicts, than why do you think so many of us are trying to get married?

      So taking all the information available, it does NOT seem that the Bible explicitly condemns committed gay relationships, but it does condemn anything outside of monogamous commitment such as adultery, promiscuity, prostitution, rape, etc. These are all misuses of sex outside of monogamous commitment, which is the basis for a lifelong marriage. Most importantly is a God-centered marriage between two believing spouses where God is the head. All of the information about the verses that appear to condemn homosexuality can be explored as a whole at http://www.gaychristians.2freedom.com

      Lastly, you said ” The Lord Jesus Christ is fully capable of taking away ANY thought, ANY action, ANY sin… if you trust Him to do it.” That is a true message indeed… The only problem with this is just because God CAN change anything, doesn’t mean that He WILL change anything. I am Caucasian. If I were to pray night and day that God would make me African American, would I one day wake up black? I could make my skin look dark with makeup, but behind the mask, I am still completely white. This is of course an analogy. But in the same way, I prayed earnestly for over half my life that God would change me. I was pushed to the brink of suicide in the process because God would not make me straight or simply take away my capacity of love for the same gender. When I was at the end of my rope, He began revealing these verses to me. I became closer to The Lord than ever before and it saved my life. I am not the only one. It has now been admitted by Exodus International (the largest “ex-gay” organization in the world) that NOT ONE in their organization has turned from gay to straight. They also admitted that NOT ONE of them had been “delivered” from having continued attraction to the same gender. They admitted that it was ALL A LIE (by wishful thinking), which every gay person already knew. Consequently, Exodus International recently shut its doors. There are of course those gays that decide to marry the opposite sex, but this in no way makes them straight. They give into feeling raped by every marital sexual encounter and have no natural capability to love their opposite sex spouse. This is unfair to both parties. It is simply unnatural. The only ones that APPEAR as success stories are those BISEXUAL Christians who marry the opposite sex and have attraction towards their spouse. But even they admit to STILL being attracted to the same gender. We are designed as humans to have and need love and affection. Those who are not have the Spiritual gift of celibacy, but it is in no way a “forcible gift.” To attempt celibacy without the Spiritual gift of celibacy is to bring upon unjust isolation that usually leads to suicide.

      God has chosen not to change people from gay to straight because it is not something that requires change. 1 Corinthians 10:13 states, “There hath no temptation taken hold of you but such as is common to man. But God is faithful; He will not suffer you to be tempted beyond that which ye are able to bear, but with the temptation will also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” So where is the “way of escape” for gay people to turn straight? It does not exist, therefore the mainstream church must be mistaken about homosexuality. If not, than this verse is not true, which can’t be. Too many gay Christians have committed suicide over this. They weren’t able to bear it and there was no way out of homosexuality.

      I feel as a growing a Christian, we must be humble enough to have a growing understanding. We don’t always know all of the answers. We aren’t always right in the way we look at things as the majority. Look at how off base the Pharisees were in the Bible and they were just trying to enforce Gods’ Law. We can make mistakes for many many centuries because we are human. I encourage you to pray for discernment and really take an honest look at these translations that promote a deeper love to all believers and potential believers. The fruit that it bears is more people willing to come to Christ! As it stands now, many are repelled by the message of condemnation against homosexuality and other gays embrace it and come to the point of mass suicides. This bears bad fruit and must be honestly confronted. I am sure that God would not want any potential followers to be turned away because they felt they were damned from the start. Doing so is shutting the door of Heaven on them before they even have a chance. It gives the message of “God hates/loves you” which is a contradiction to God’s Grace and love. We are to be “fishers of men” as Christians, not hunters.

      I appreciate your prayers, Hannah. I do want to know the truth and this is why I am doing these in-depth studies. I don’t want to be deceived by anything, so I always check for myself and pray for guidance whenever a claim is made. I now always pray that God shows me the truth, and these are the things He has since shown me within Scripture for which I was previously unaware before I had any thought to question. So it must be noted that a true alternate translation exists WITHIN the Scripture.

      I will also pray for you, Hannah. You did not find this site by accident. Thank you again. May God truly bless you in new ways and meet your needs so that glory may be brought to His name.
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti
      P.S. Thank you for reading this. I think it may just be the longest comment I have ever written in my entire life! 🙂

  6. Nathan Robinson says:

    I LOVE your website. It is helping me cope with my being gay and being a Christian. I have also been researching the Bible and am convinced it does not condemn gay people. I told my reverend how I feel and told her and about my research and gave her websites to look at. She is still convinced its a sin regardless of the evidence. What should I do?

    • I am so glad that you are finding my website helpful! I’m sure it took you a lot of courage to share that information with your pastor! This is definitely a difficult subject and not easy to change peoples pre-conceived feelings and beliefs on it. Because the majority of her congregation may believe homosexuality is a sin, this also makes it hard for her being the leader. Sadly, I have seen some pastors who have a change of heart and it has cost them to lose a lot of their church members because of their strong opposition. This is a problem. I would continue to pray that your pastor has an open heart to really explore this issue and question if her belief comes from true spiritual conviction or if it comes more from a personal aversion because she doesn’t possess attraction to the same-gender herself. I think that sometimes people (especially heterosexuals) have a personal conviction against it because it’s unnatural for THEM, just as an opposite-sex relationship is unnatural for us. But this personal conviction does not mean it is a conviction for all believers….

      Secondly, I would help her question the commonality of all sin. What I mean by this is that all sin under the New Covenant (post-Old Testament) seems to lack one thing. It seems to be an absence of bestowing love to God and to others. If you examine any sin, it all seems to come down to doing harm in some way which is the absence of bestowing love. Because we are taught that “Love is all The Law demands,” than how can a loving God-centered monogamous life-long partnership be sinful? It is no wonder that same-sex marriage is not mentioned in Scripture because we represent such a small portion of the human population. Likewise, there is no mention of hermaphrodites (those who possess both male and female sexual organs) in Scripture. Who are they allowed to marry? I have come to believe that Biblical marriage (as a God-centered monogamous life-long partnership) is a blueprint for same-gender couples as well. Just as the Message came “first to the Jew, then to the Gentile,” I feel that the blueprint for marriage came first to the heterosexual (majority), then to the homosexual (minority.) This is my conviction. I don’t believe that ALL homosexuals must be celibate, as celibacy is a Spiritual Gift. If one does not possess this gift, how can it be forced? One without the gift of healing cannot heal just as one without the gift of prophecy cannot prophesy. How then can one without the gift of celibacy properly benefit from being celibate if there heart longs so much for a life long romantic companionship? There is quite a difference between someone being single and someone being called to celibacy to profit the Kingdom. This is my belief.

      Lastly, you might want to remind your pastor that the majority of God-believers are not always correct. Remember in Scripture it teaches us that the majority believed that only Jews were accepted by God. It was a small minority belief that Gentiles were also accepted if they loved God and followed His commands to love. The majority saw them as unclean and unworthy, but Scripture teaches us that we are all welcome if we come to God and no one who does will be cast out. Similarly, just because the majority of Christians believe that homosexuals are unworthy of salvation does not make them the authority. Only God is the authority of who is saved, and He makes it clear in Scripture that if we come to Him, He will accept us.

      If all else fails, you may want to consider finding a welcoming church if it troubles you too much. But of course I would recommend you pray about this first and let God lead you in the decision. Let me know if you have any more questions. You and your pastor will be in my prayers!
      -Moanti

  7. Nicky42 says:

    you helped me so much – I always thought that I was sinning intentionally because of my orientation. So I want to know, even if one is Bisexual/homosexual,does that mean it is still a sin to have sex before you are married? I mean I don’t want to commit fortification either way – but being celibate will be hard for me since I don’t understand which one I really am. I have feelings both ways. So, according to the bible, all disciples of God should wait until Marriage- and one gets a spiritual bond when engaging in those acts (which is why serious relationship break-ups are so difficult to get over) I came to God in 5th grade, and Love him with all my heart. He saved me , I believe- and I read a lot of your posts and found them helpful. I will keep reading. I read the bible and pray as much as I can. I come from a family where my Father is a Jew, and my mother is Roman Catholic. Mother is more homophobic than my dad. So even when I explained it to them, they thought it was a phase and I would get over it and now don’t even think about it. My dads brother is Gay and had a partner. They still talk, so I think that’s why my father is less homophibic that my mother. She sticks to the whole “its a choice or they have a screwed up gene” So I try not to mention anything about gay people to her. It was hard growing up because I knew that I liked girls. I liked girls first- then I liked guys later. Now i find both attractive. Being Christian was so confusing for me, because I had no idea how to stop it. When i went to therapy, my therapist said there was a spectrum , from exclusively Gay to exclusively straight. She said the curve exists in everyone and that MOST people are somewhere in the middle, but those who consider themselves straights are more towards the heterosexual end, and those who are Gay are more towards the other end. Anyhow, I thank you for someone who finally will speak out and examine the scripture further .

    Furthermore- I use the MESSAGE translation because it was written by a pastor who studied a lot and translated directly from the original Hebrew and Greek scripture. I know you like to use various versions- but really check it out. Its written in contemporary language.

    • Hi there Nicki,
      I am truly honored to have helped you in this area and give all glory to God! I hope that you find other articles on here of value to your Spiritual walk with Christ. I want to invite you to ask more questions, if you have them. But first, I will tell you what I have gathered from your first question. You asked if we should still wait until marriage if we are bisexual/homosexual. Biblical marriage is a God-centered monogamous life-long covenant. In the Bible, we only see examples of heterosexual marriage (unless David and Jonathan’s covenant was in fact a marriage.) This is not that unusual considering that homosexuals make up a very small portion of the population. The Bible gives no instruction on marriage to hermaphrodites (those born with both working sex organs), but they also exist in the minority. Couldn’t a marriage to a hermaphrodite be considered both a heterosexual and homosexual marriage? I was reading Scriptures recently and praying for knowledge in this area and I received this message loud and clear:
      I am convicted that Biblical heterosexual marriage is a BLUEPRINT for same-sex couples as well. Just as the Message of Salvation was given “first to the Jew, then to the Gentile,” the blueprint for marriage as God centered, life-long committed union was given first to the heterosexual (majority), then to the homosexual (minority.) In Biblical times, the majority of the God-believing community were Jews. The Gentiles were the outsiders, yet a minority of Gentiles (non-Jews) believed in God despite their rejection from the Jews. It was the majority Jew belief that ALL Gentiles were unclean abominations, essentially cast out from God. They believed within themselves that only the Jews were chosen by God to believe. Only a few Jews believed that Salvation was open to the Gentiles as well, and this was in fact the true message (refer to Acts chapter 10.) This Biblically demonstrates that “the majority” of believers aren’t always in the right… Likewise, it seems that the majority of Christian believers believe that gays cannot be Christians, nor does God bless a same-sex marriage. Are they correct because they are in the majority in this belief? Or have they confused their personal repulsion of the sex act for Spiritual conviction? Throw in the modern “traditional” translation of Scripture and it appears to justify them despite the contextual and linguistic evidence to the contrary.

      So if Biblical marriage is a blueprint for same-sex couples, we have to consider what constitutes as marriage. Does this mean that all gay committed monogamous relationships are outside of marriage unless they live in a state or country that legally recognizes it? I don’t believe this is so. Biblical marriage was not a state or government contract. It was and is a united covenant between two people and God. There were no government “marriage licenses” in Biblical times, yet they were considered married. We can suppose from Scripture that the first marriage was instituted by God between Adam and Eve. Why now would we have to ask the government permission to marry if it is a covenant made only between the couple and God in Scripture? 1 Timothy 4:1-3 describes that in later times, people will move away from true teachings and forbid people to marry. There is historical documentation that same-sex marriage was performed in some churches in the past. Not until recently, most were forbidden from marriage. This is similar to the forbidding of interracial marriage in the United States. Ironically, government marriage licenses were not in effect in the U.S. until it became a law that interracial couples ask the governments permission before marrying. Then it became widespread that all state marriages require licenses. This law is formed from a government institution, not Biblical. It puts the final authority in the government’s hands rather than God. God is the only final authority and should be held as the only final authority in the marital union. Therefore, it seems that a legal government license is not required to be truly married in the eyes of God.

      The fact that same-sex couples have been denied government license to marry for so long has caused many to feel that “the rules” don’t apply to them. I feel that the problem of same-sex promiscuity and short fading relationships is because the majority have discouraged same-gender marriage. For us to be equal, we must act in an equal way and take marriage seriously. There are many life-long same-gender relationships, but most of the modern church sees and believes only the gay promiscuity. As Christians, we should form a marriage covenant that is God-centered, committed, life-long, and monogamous. It is my belief that this does not require government marriage license, but a mutual covenant made before God as was done in the Biblical past.

      If a same-gender couple still feels compelled by their conscience that they must obtain a government marriage license to be legitimate, as of now in the United States they can marry in California, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New York, Illinois, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, New Jersey, New Mexico, Utah and Washington D.C. For the Native Americans, no tribes have special regulations or laws against same-sex marriage. However, documented same-sex marriage has been instituted in the Coquille Tribe (Oregon), the Suquamish tribe (Washington) the Confederated Tribes of the Colville Reservation (Washington), the Leech Lake Band of Ojibwe (Minnesota), Little Traverse Bay Bands of Odawa Indians (Michigan), Pokagon Band of Potawatomi Indians (Michigan), and Santa Ysabel Tribe (California) and all of the Cheyenne and Arapaho Tribes. [This information was obtained by Wikipedia on April 5, 2014.]

      Aside from this, I know it’s really difficult to wait. It’s hard for heterosexuals as well. I am not perfect. I had several relationships in the past before I found my Christian spouse. This was before I came to the realization of Scripture concerning homosexuality that I describe throughout my website. None the less, I realized that I was in rebellion and I have sinned, but thankfully know that Jesus Christ has paid the penalty for my sins and I am a forgiven believer.

      If you do not feel called to celibacy, while you are single I encourage you to pray that God leads you to your spouse and that they also have the same Christian beliefs and values. If it ends up being a female, be open to talk about this with them and wait until a marriage covenant has been made if you don’t want to feel guilt. Either way, I feel that the most important thing of all is to always put God at the center of your relationship with Jesus as the foundation. I feel that you will be blessed for this beyond your imagination! My marriage with my spouse is unlike any past relationship and it is all due to putting God first and walking in unity with Christ together as one flesh. It is certainly worth the wait!

      Thanks for sharing your testimony and about your parents. I also got the “it’s a phase” belief when I was younger. You may want to check out https://moanti.wordpress.com/2012/09/10/coming_out_as_gay_or_lesbian_to_christian_parents/ which describes the stages that parents tend to go through when they discover their children aren’t heterosexual.

      As far as Bible translations, my very favorite is studying the Interlinear Bible (which has the Hebrew and Greek side-by-side) because I feel it’s so important to examine the original language. The only reason I don’t usually quote from “The Message” is because a lot of it is paraphrased, although I find it helpful in making the Bible more understandable and applicable to the modern reader. I do like how the author draws in the context in places where others may not understand. I usually use a more word-for-word translation which I honestly haven’t been able to find one translation that satisfies all of this when I read from the Hebrew and Greek. That is why I tend to use various translations depending on the topic. Even within the Interlinear Bible, there always exists words of controversy which don’t have an established concrete definition (such as the definition of arsenokoites and malakos). Even when a definition is stated, I like to contrast it’s meaning with all other verses in the Bible to assure meaning. I find that it’s best to pray to God that the Holy Spirit makes these things known to us in context.

      Thank you again for your comment and please feel free to ask me anything else.
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

  8. Raymond Creed says:

    Dear Moanti,

    As a user of Midrash I can readily appreciate the brilliance of some of your bible expositions. At times my jaw has dropped with amazement at the skill with which you handed key passages in God’s Word. This was especially the case with your exploration of 2 Corinthians 13:8 which spoke to me about my own particular thorn in the flesh. Having being happily married for nearly thirty five years I am not Gay but more grumpy (at least that’s what my wife and grown children say). I have suffered from dyslexia and a related problem in perception which can have all sorts of distorting effects like finding it difficult to tell my left from right. I’ve also over the last forty years had to endure the death of English Christianity and all too frequent rejection by the churches. (Some of the stories i could tell would rival those in the LGBT Christian Community. But being a stubborn Northern Englishman I just kept going. I’ve also managed to author some books on Amazon and am a published poet. (Mixing in rather Bohemian literary circles has brought me into contact with those who have what I call a multi-sexual orientation. I prefer to use that term because it’s more precise.)

    At present I’m having a major re-think about the whole LGBT controversy. Evidence is mounting that my wife and I are being called to engage deeply with this area and I’m subjecting the whole issue to a prolonged process of discernment. If you like it’s a call in embryo. There is much that I can give and receive in this area. However, I’m not in the business of giving cheap affirmation rather the perspective I believe I’m being called to follow is one of Homo-realism which tries to see things as they are and not as both sides of the Gay divide wish them to be. It’s an approach which attempts strikes a sane middle ground between a fearful homophobia at one extreme and an undiscerning homophilia at the other. (Sorry about the long words but I am a pendant when it comes to language.) My secondary mission is to make people think through provoking debate while my primary mission is to stress the saving power of Christ’s atonement at a time when I firmly believe the whole of Western Civilization is heading towards judgment.. (A major theme in my latest poetry publication.) How my wife and I even got to considering engaging this area is a story in itself and one too long to recount here.But let’s say the good Lord kept planting a hobnailed boot on our posteriors. We both knew we had to do something.

    Although fully appreciative of the many excellent features in your studies what does concern me is the cultural relativeisation of what the Gay Community know as the ‘clobber passages. Genesis 18-19 and Romans 1:18-32 particulary come to mind. There are of course other passages but time only permits me to focus on those those two. The pro-Gay argument as far as I can see it is that these passages only applied to a particular long gone cultural context. The arguments that are employed are very similar to those employed by Right Wing Calvinists who deny that spiritual gifts are for today or that God has a purpose for Israel. (I should know, I’m writing a book on the subject.) This suggests that there’s a problem with the whole Protestant system of bible hermeneutics but that is too large an issue to cover here. This cultural relativism approach ignores the rather obvious point that the ‘clobber’ passages are there for purpose and they oblige bible commentators to discern exactly what that purpose is. This is a point highlighted by Paul in 2 Timothy 3:16f. It is therefore dangerous to limit their applicability to another time of human history. Contained in these passages are eternal principles that we ignore at our peril. For instance Genesis 19:10-11 contains the principle which warns that people of any orientation can become intoxicated with their lusts that they become unable to see the door of salvation.They have been afflicted with a retributive spiritual blindness – surely this is a warning fully applicable our porn soaked culture ?

    This point is highlighted when refers to a midrash perspective on bible prophecy. This sees it as having a number of different fulfilments spread over history. At the societal, as well as individual level there are repeated patterns of dysfunctional behavior which can wreak havoc unless checked at an early stage. This point was brought home to me during a visit with two of my sons to the infamous Nazi death camp Auschwitz Birkenau in October 2011. What that ghastly place highlighted was the fact that pattern of apostasy, idolatry and judgement wasn’t something confined to Ancient Rome. It re-occurred with interwar Germany and there’s much evidence to suggest that it’s re-occurring in the in our own time. Consequently, I wouldn’t be surprised if in future decades the Western World produced horrors to rival those I saw in Auschwitz – a place full of the ashes of those who were made to wear the pink triangle. My fear is that to insistently argue that Paul’s teaching in Roman 1 only applied to a certain context in first century Rome is to risk being caught unawares when the pattern of behavior starts to be repeated in our own society.There are indeed plenty of idols in our own culture that are ripe for a dose of divine wrath. In their obscenity, some of them rival the idols I saw during a visit to Rome last August. The Christian Right may be wrong on many things but they have a point when they state that western civilization is in a state of serious crisis. It is and it’s a crisis that could cause the LGBT group to suffer.

    Largely overlooked is that these ‘clobber’ passages can have a redemptive effect. The Holy Spirit put them there to drive sinners to the cross of Jesus where complete forgiveness and a truly amazing grace can be found. By relativising those passages you risk short circuiting the process through which people come to Christ. How can people be made aware of the wonderful salvation that can be given through Christ’s sacrificial death they must first have some awareness of sin.

    The fact that the Holy Spirit has dragged me here by the scruff of my neck to challenge you like this does perhaps confirm your point that God loves those of your sexual persuasion but sometimes love can be tough. You have many wonderful gifts Moanti, please don’t use them to ‘take away’ from the Word of God, (Revelation 22:19). The length at which I have gone to challenge can be taken as a sign that I appreciate your very real teachings. I do respect a woman with brains regardless of their sexual orientation. Oddly enough the more I engage with the Christian multi-sexual scene, the more joy i receive. my head is swimming at the changes the Lord appears to be producing in this area.

    Yours with respectful regards,
    A fellow enthusiast for Midrash
    Raymond Creed author of ‘The 52 Attributes of God and ‘The Phantom Conflict’ (both are available through Amazon or Lulu Publications)

    • Dear Raymond,
      I want to thank you graciously for your thoughtful comment. I am filled with joy that you find value in my writings on this topic and I respect your opinions on what you’ve taken from it thus far. May all glory be given to God! My entire meaning and purpose behind this body of writing is to bring those who feel cast out from Christ to enter into a closer relationship with Him, as I feel called to share this message of hope to others in order to help the lost unite with their Creator. I also seek to reach out to those who have a pre-determined view of these Scriptural passages and help them take a second look in order to bring more glory to God by showing love to our neighbor, as condemnation before exploration can be harmful. Referring to Proverbs chapter 18 verse 15, “An intelligent heart acquires knowledge. And the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.” I can tell from your words that you are a seeker of Holy knowledge. With this said, it is wise to explore all avenues in search of the truth. I believe that all truth leads to God, and when one makes their mind up before being willing to fully search this out, they risk being misled. It should also be noted that “the majority” are not always correct. We see this demonstrated in Biblical history. The majority of God-believers (Jews) fully accepted that Gentiles were cursed and not allowed to be followers of God, yet it was revealed that this majority was wrong, as God accepted both the Jew and Gentile if they believed and followed His commands. Our current state seems to be the same. The majority of Christians believe that homosexuals are cursed and not allowed to be followers God, yet I have publicly seen and felt the Holy Spirit in others more within the gay Christian church than anywhere else in my own life. I pray for those who read my words and that everything that is written here brings them into a closer relationship with our Almighty God.

      As far as the right wing Calvinist view, I personally believe whole heartily that our Spiritual gifts are still in full effect, as I have strongly witnessed this in my own life and in others. The power of God is beyond the bounds of time and culture and He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I also fully believe that God has a Divine purpose for Israel and I often pray for Yeshua to return with haste so that God’s Kingdom will be established among us in our lifetime. I can clearly see your point about the dangers of cultural relativism, however, to have knowledge of the real cultural practices surrounding these “clobber passages” in no way takes away from the miracles and Divine purpose of God. The Spiritual fruit which has come forth from this message has strengthened those who felt condemned from God to come into a closer relationship with Him. So although I see the dangers of applying cultural relativism to key passages in Scripture, I feel to ignore the cultural aspect in these particular passages does a multitude of harm to those it appears to attack. To ignore it is to deny Biblical history and distort the message of these verses to hastily condemn a whole group of potential followers of Christ.

      We know that Satan and the fallen angels rejoice when souls are steered away from God. Think of how many gays and lesbians have rejected God which is usually due to His followers condemning them first. The “majority message” on this topic does not bear good Spiritual fruit, as it takes away from the “whosoever” in John 3:16. It reminds me of Yeshua’s warning to the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:13 as He says to them, “You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces.” But when we see these passages in their proper context, we can see the love of God that much more clearly and consequently, fruitfulness is multiplied! We know that love comes from God and to say that love is a sin doesn’t fit the commonality of the design within sin. All sin appears to lack a bestowing of love which causes harm to God and others. The true opposite of committing works of sin is to follow the command to love God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love others as ourselves, as we also know that “love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of The Law.” (Romans 13:10). But most importantly, it is only through the perfect final blood sacrifice of our Savior that we are freed from the wages of sin which is death. So despite a million righteous acts, with one sin we are guilty without acceptance of His intercession of atonement. For we are told if we live (only) by The Law, we will be judged by The Law and die under The Law. But the grace of the Lord’s salvation covers all sin. Praises be to Yahweh, the God of Israel, for sending Yeshua ha-mashiach!

      I feel that Timothy 3:16 does apply to all Scripture, and with this said, it is still harmful to this day to engage in any form of prostitution or misusing sex, wether it be in a idolatrous religious ritual, promiscuous activity, adultery, pornography or anything outside of the blueprint for marriage. These things are the idolatry of the love union blessed by God. As I have said before (which I am not sure if you read), I believe that just as the Message came “first to the Jew, then to the Gentile,” the central attributes of Biblical marriage (as a God-centered committed, lifelong, monogamous covenant) came first to the heterosexual (majority), then to the homosexual (minority.) What I mean by this is that I firmly believe that we are all to follow God’s blueprint for marriage, which is not a matter of gender, but a matter of being committed monogamously for life with God at the center of the union.

      So although all Scripture is profitable and applicable, we must not fail to acknowledge that there are commands that fit under the umbrella for its appointed time. When the world was barren, procreation was of the upmost importance. We know that the Jews were to follow rituals under the Old Covenant to both train them in righteousness as well as distinguish them from the surrounding Pagan nations. In the very beginning, we know that incest was a necessity to fill the earth. Even our beloved descendant Abraham was married to his half-sister Sarah. After enough were upon the earth, we see that God strongly prohibited incest as an abomination. Likewise we see multiple wives and concubines in the beginning for procreation. Then at the appointed time when there were enough humans, only a single wife was permitted. History has its “seasons” for a reason. It would seem logical that the next step of our time would be to no longer condemn same-gender pairings, as we are no longer mandatorily commanded to have children and the world is nearly overfilled. Thus looking at the cultural context of these particular verses can provide insight and is vital for proper understanding. These “seasons” are important in viewing the relevance of a topic such as this and does not take away from the glory and power of God in a time in which we are nearing the last day and rein of His Eternal Kingdom. We are told in Scripture in Ecclesiastes 3:1 that “To everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven.” So for certain things, culture really shouldn’t be ignored lest we stumble into confusion and wrongly condemn a group of people.

      Even despite the literal modern interpretation of these “clobber passages,” it still must be noted that it never outright condemns same-gender marriage (or monogamous life-long relationships.) Also, when we look at the New Testament verses on the topic, we can see that Paul was stating what had occurred in Rome (in Romans 1) and stating how the unrighteous would not inherit the Kingdom of God (in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy.) There is not an explicit mandatory command to refrain from same-gender activity in the New Testament as we find more likely in the Levitical Law (if it is in fact prohibiting sex between males due to the need to procreate to fill the earth and be set aside from Pagan nations who engaged in same-sex activity in idol worship). So our exploration of these New Testament passages must ask the fundamental question of whom Paul is writing about. To be wrong about the targeted person has deadly consequences. Despite this, we know that all have sinned and are considered unrighteous without the covering of the blood of the Son of God as the final sacrifice for sins. “Therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus Christ.”

      Aside from this, I also believe that celibacy is a Spiritual gift. Many who possess this gift are able to be joyfully celibate just as Paul. He states, “But I wish everyone were single, just as I am. Yet each person has a special gift from God, of one kind or another.” (1 Corinthians 7:7). Sometimes I feel that some gay people are given this Spiritual gift, but mistake the reason for their call to celibacy as due to the defilement of their sexual orientation. This does not give credit to their given Spiritual gift, but rather a part of them that they view as sinful. Paul states in 1 Corinthians 7:32-34 “An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs–how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world–how he can please his wife– and his interests are divided.” How much more divided is the celibate homosexual who is only fixated on their own condemnation and that of others like them? This takes the joy out of the gift.

      But Paul states, “But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain [single] even as I am; But if they do not endure, let them marry. For it is better to marry rather than to burn with passion.” (1 Corinthians 7:8,9). But if one with a homosexual orientation marries the opposite sex, this will not quench their “burning of passion.” So which is better? To remain single and “slip up” by having random sexual encounters (as sadly so many do in this situation)? Or allow them to marry a suitable partner with whom they can be monogamously satisfied in the confines of marriage? We know that God made a suitable partner for Adam who was Eve. Shouldn’t each be with a suitable partner? A homosexual married to a heterosexual is not only an unsuitable pairing, but can encourage the sin of lust, adultery and unlawful divorce and put unneeded hurt upon to heterosexual partner.

      Overall, we must not ignore the warnings in Romans 1, as many have exchanged the truth for a lie and are currently serving created things rather than the Creator. This is certainly not confined to Ancient Rome and those who engaged in these acts. We see this today just as we saw it thousands of years prior. My emphasis on culture is limited to the very real practice of shrine prostitution and the gang-rape of foreigners. This cultural knowledge shows us that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality as a whole. Without this contextual knowledge, we may be wrongfully “shutting the door of Heaven” to millions of potential followers. When a homosexual is told they are going to hell for involuntarily loving the only way they know how, it pushes them from the desire to know God, as He is seen as an unjust hater of unfair wrath. It also places heterosexuals as superior rather than what they are; the majority. This can lead homosexuals to feel that “the rules don’t apply to them” and encourages rejection of God and promiscuity. Furthermore, it places heterosexuals in a position of pride, as they would never commit the “sin” of homosexuality. But when we see these verses in their proper context, we know that God is loving to all who seek Him and it encourages one to follow God and conform to His perfect blueprint for a God-centered monogamous life-long committed marriage. And for those who know these things and possess the gift of celibacy, they can recognize their given gift for what it is rather than recoiling in shame of themselves and others like them. So with this alternate message found within the Scriptures, God is glorified all the more!

      Lastly, I must admit that I was unfamiliar with the term “Midrash,” but upon looking it up I found it quite fascinating that I discovered these things unaware. I often pray for The Lord to give me Biblical wisdom, and I praise Him for showing me so many magnificent things in His Word to share with others. I invite you to comment further, as I appreciate your input and thoughts. I would like to know how you and your wife came to be interested in this topic. I do enjoy long comments, so don’t feel you have to edit yourself. I shall go for now, but once again thank you for your words.
      Your Sister in Christ,
      Moanti

      • Raymond Creed says:

        Thank you very much for your gracious reply.my wife Martyr Creed who looks at all my posts in this area, thinks I’ve found ‘a good sparring partner’ while my eldest son has opined “More gay friends as you get on Dad! Whatever is going on. Gay Christian churches and lesbian professors, whatever next, a cross dressing Rabbi? Oh, and Haha!” It’s nice that what is in many ways a highly divisive issue can be a source of mirth. Now down to business. You raised a lot of points and I shall try to address them as best I can.

        It’s clear to me that in contrast to ‘Progressive’ multi-sexual activist Bloggs I’ve looked at you are genuinely regenerate. No one can come out with the insights you have unless they were shown them by the Holy Spirit. This doesn’t mean you may not be seriously misguided in other areas but the Gospel is one thing you certainly have and hence I can genuinely greet you as a sister in Christ. This is an enormous leap for me as I have never before encountered a practicing lesbian who shows clear signs of spiritual regeneration. In England the one’s I’ve encountered are either liberals (equivalent to you ‘progressives’) or mother earth worshiping neo-pagans. The situation among male multi-sexuals professing the name of Christ is no better. They tend to be public schools types who love gaudy vestments far more then they love Christ. In my experience they usually resemble either the weak willed Sebastian Flyte or the malign Anthony Blanche in Evelyn Waugh’s novel Brideshead Revisited. Mind you I had some hilarious encounters with them when visiting a religious house during the 1980s to do some independent research into the Early Church Fathers. However, it does help to have a dark sense of humour when visiting a place where one quarter to one third of the men would be willing to pinch your bottom if they took a fancy to you. (Thankfully none did.) In all my nearly four decades long experience as a Christian believer you’re the first person of active single sex inclination who I can say is genuinely born again. My head spins at the implications of this finding. But the fact remains you are the first one.

        There were many strong points in your handling of God’s Word. I liked the way you took seriously the cultural context of a passage, your obvious reverence for the sacred text and your desire to use it in a way that will show God’s real compassion for the multi-sexual community. All these were definite positives so it seems churlish for me to concentrate on those areas that I do have serious questions about, but I’m here just to say nice things but to engage in debate with a lady whose intelligence I respect. For one thing I believe you over state the difference between the Ancient World and today’s World. In terms of technology there is of course a vast difference but in terms of cultural values that is questionable. If you read the satires of Juvenal (late first to second century but using earlier material) you will find that Same Sex marriages are present and these and other similarities would suggest that there’s much evidence to support the views of astute commentators like Ferdinand Mount (2010) that the values of the Ancient World have come back to dominate us. The ‘clobber’ verses in Romans 1 are perhaps more applicable than they’ve been for centuries. We are entering the world that Paul described. Under the direction of the Holy Spirit he was not only writing to his contemporaries but for believers of all generations including our own.

        Oddly enough you are on firmer ground in your use of 1 Corinthians 7:8-9. Now at this point I will introduce an argument that will cause raised eyebrows among both pro and anti-Gay activists. I’m not saying this argument is right but only suggesting that it is worth debating. If you take the doctrine of the fall seriously then its clear that every area of human existence is twisted by sin. You name it and sin has got in there big and strong. The Calvinist stress on the Total depravity of Human Nature appeals to me because it’s realistic and it does explain all the wickedness that has so often prevailed in human history. One effect of the fall was a blurring and breakdown of the clear sexual boundaries God created between male and female in Genesis 2:18f, heterosexual lust, same sex attraction and transgenderism are all the result of the fall. There’s a deeply rooted disorder that penetrates and rules over the very deepest parts of our being. That’s why when multi-sexuals claim that ‘I’ve been like this as a child, I’ve never been able to change, it’s what I am,’ I believe them. The argument that homosexuality represents a lifestyle choice is in most cases invalid (the only exception I know of are those rather pathetic Holleywood Starlets who are in such desperation to revive a fading showbiz career that they choose to come out as ‘Gay.’) Indeed I would go as far as to argue that the ‘lifestyle choice’ argument stresses from the Fifth century Pelagian Heresy which stressed the power of human will to conquer our imperfections. It was this error which I believe underlay much of the conversion. therapy associated with Exodus. It tried to use psychological techniques to do a work that can only ever be done by the Holy Spirit. When it comes to a change in sexual orientation it really is a case of, “not by power, not by might but by my Spirit says the Lord of Hosts,” (Zechariah 4:6b). Unless one has a special unction from the Holy Spirit one has as much chance of changing a person’s sexual orientation as walking across the Atlantic Ocean in bare feet. It just can’t be done.

        Now this last point brings me to the key argument which states ‘living in a fallen world presents people with a series of bad options and that all we can do is choose the least bad of these options.’ Arguably fighting the Second World war was a bad option but it was less bad then the option of allowing the Nazi’s to dominate Europe and proceed with their ‘Final Solution’ to the Jewish Questions. At the domestic level parents can be faced with the horrendous choice of ejecting one teenager heavily into drugs and crime in order to prevent them from risking the lives of other family members including their younger siblings. In your own particular case you appear to have the options of withering inside with frustration, becoming a promiscuous bar sexual or finding a safety valve for your Same Sex Attractions within the boundaries of a marital style relationship. Do I condemn you for making the choice you have? No I do not for more than once in my life I’ve been at the place of choosing the least bad options. We live in a fallen world and we need sometimes to follow the option which we find less appalling.

        In hindsight, only wish that the emotive word ‘marriage’ hadn’t got mixed up with it all. In Britain the old Civic Partnerships system got things more or less right. The traditional view of marriage was upheld but there was the option of obtaining the financial benefits of marriage for multi-sexual individuals. That way there was no unnecessary clash with religious communities and having to waste hours re-defining marriage certificates. In England it’s such a constitutional mess that the question has been raised ‘what if the monarch is a queen in more ways than one?’ Highlighting the futility of it all was the fact that there no pressure to redefine marriage from within the Gay Community who were content with what they got. The whole thing was a vanity project dreamt up by politicians aiming to gain cheap popularity. So much parliamentary time was wasted on this issue when there were more important matters to attend to like the economy or national defense. The whole thing should have been settled on the basis of a referendum and then it might have had some democratic legitimacy. Still Same Sex Legislation did get past much to the delight of lawyers and the media so like it or not we now face a whole set of new realities that are to be engaged with.

        There is so much I could say about Midrash that I don’t really know where to begin. As time is running out all I can do is quote from an article I’ve written on the subject. It’s entitled ‘What is Midrash?’ I hope you find it helpful. please let me know if you require more information on the topic.

        “Briefly, ‘Midrash’ refers to those methods of Bible interpretation employed by Jesus and the Apostles during the first century AD. It is derived from the Hebrew word ‘Daresh,’ meaning ‘to launch a thorough investigation’ or ‘inquisitorial enquiry into something.’ It also has strong associations with such verbs as ‘to interpret’ or ‘to seek.’ Also present are connotations with the word ‘urgency.’ The meaning of a passage is sought out in a mood of urgency rather than of casual interest. This is because Scripture itself is the very word of God. Consequently, Midrash simply means an urgent but rigorous, investigative interpretation into Divine revelation. As a discipline it is underpinned by the assumption that any investigation into God’s word could well be a matter of life or death. If the results of that investigation are faulty, then the consequences could be truly devastating at the individual and wider corporate level.

        However, the employment of the word ‘Daresh’ in 2 Chronicle’s 13:22 and 24:27 also indicates its association with the concept of ‘story.’ Such a story may either be factual, (a record of historical events) or parabolic, (designed to illustrate a Biblical truth). Grasping either aspect is important because provides the key to seeing Scripture through First Century Jewish eyes. It certainly enables God’s word to be interpreted in a more full and correct.

        Another noteworthy point is that, as a discipline, Midrash grew in complexity over the centuries. This meant that the Midrashic methods employed by a medieval Rabbi would not necessarily have been those of the First Century. This is because the Medieval Rabbi would have had to take into account new challenges to his faith (most notably the presence of Christianity and Islam). Also Jewish scholarship itself continued to develop over the centuries and was responsive to fresh cultural influences (one of these being the rise of Cabalistic mysticism in the Jewish communities of medieval Spain). Interesting though such developments are, little can be said about them here for reasons of space. This booklet will focus almost exclusively upon the first century Midrash of Jesus and the Apostles.

        A second key word is ‘hermeneutics’ – derived from the Greek word ‘hermeneuo,’ meaning ‘to interpret’ or ‘to explain.’ It is employed in John 1.38b where the word’ Rabbi’ is translated into the Greek Didaskalos meaning ‘master’ or ‘teacher.’ Very simply, Hermeneutics can be defined as the organised, methodical study and practice of Bible interpretation. More specifically, it examines the merits and demerits of particular methods of interpretation. If Midrash is more concerned with ascertaining “What does God’s word really say about a particular topic?” Then Hermeneutics’ focus is upon resolving the question “How can God’s word be best interpreted?” However, despite this difference in emphasis Midrash is an integral part of Bible Hermeneutics. After a long period of neglect within the Gentile Church Midrash is becoming an increasingly important discipline – of great practical value to the Church today.”

      • Hello again Raymond,
        I want to first start off with thanking you for recognizing the Holy Spirit within me as a believer with the Gospel. Many whom I have met online that still hold to the belief that homosexuality is a sin have called me demon possessed, false prophet, Satan worshiper, etc. I was even once encountered by a man who believed that ALL gays and lesbians were murderers and child molesters! So it is refreshing (to say the least) that you can come to me with the knowledge of being a fellow believer in Christ. As far as people I have met in person, they can clearly see the Holy Spirit within me as well, and so when they are ever confronted with the fact that I am a lesbian in a nearly 10 year God-centered monogamous union, they become confused. If homosexuality is a sin, than I would be considered an unrepentant sinner. Although under grace, we are called by Yeshua to repent of our sins. If I am unrepentant, than why does Yahweh continue to directly bless me and my committed covenant with such love, peace and acceptance? There is not a word in the English language that I can come up with to describe the absolute unfathomable love I have for my beloved Creator, and even greater is the love I feel emanating from Him through my every microscopic cell. I want to please Him more than anything or anyone else. I am moved to tears at His Divine presence and am filled with His peace that surpasses all understanding. How is this possible?

        Another blessing is that you have the knowledge that the homosexual orientation is not a choice and is unchangeable. I would now like to take a bit of time to tell you my story if you don’t mind. I just want you to get a clearer picture of what I have gone through and how I’ve come to my point of understanding. With this said, I had my first “crush” on a female at age 5. I was raised in a Southern Baptist home and went through Christian schooling through most of my years aside from college. It was not until 4th grade that I was encountered with the consequences of my sexual orientation in a chapel service at school. I was told that people like me were bound to burn in hell unless they chose not to be gay. This sent me into a frenzy to attempt to become straight and renounce my natural feelings of love towards the same gender. It led me into sinful promiscuous behavior with several males in my attempt as an adult. This was obviously not successful, and so I came to a point where I then attempted to ignore my faith, which was just as impossible. Because of this, I felt doomed to hell. I was convinced I was bound to burn through all eternity. Depression overtook me and I got to a point when I made several attempts to end my life. I felt such shame and guilt and overwhelming condemnation that I felt I deserved to die and burn. I was completely lost, yet longed for God to truly accept me.

        One day when I was in the depths of despair, I opened the Bible and asked God to speak to my heart and show me what I needed to do to please Him. I opened the Book to Romans and came upon these words: “For the commandments say, ‘you must not commit adultery, you must not murder. You must not steal. You must not covet’ and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of The Law.” (Romans 13:9,10). This verse saved my life. I felt the presence of God after years of feeling falsely rejected by Him. I felt Yahweh speak to me, that He loved me as I am and Yeshua had already paid the death penalty for all my sins. His blood washed me clean. I realized that compassion and empathic love towards others was fulfilling His requirements. I was to continue to love Him and bestow love to others. This is what I needed to do. Part of this command is to love your neighbor “as yourself.” I had not shown love to myself. This I had to find in order to be perfect in love towards others.

        I had so many pre-conceived ideas about homosexuality taught to me by the church, so when I would read these passages, I already viewed them in the lenses of total condemnation of my orientation. Then a verse comes to mind from Proverbs 18:13, “If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.” So I sought to truly research these passages at their deepest level and prayed for discernment. I began my journey of Scriptural discovery and was astounded at what was revealed… Once I finally began to receive peace, I prayed for God to send me a Christian partner, wether it be male or female, His Will be done. Following my prayer, I met my Christian female spouse.

        The more I have learned about this alternate translation within the Scriptures, the stronger my relationship has become with The Lord and my spouse. I have learned that the most important thing in any marriage is to put God first. When we live by His Will, He blesses our union. My wife and I are in prayer together so often that people laugh at us, as we consult with Him on ALL issues. I can honestly say that we pray and talk about God in at least 80% of our conversations. We are still in the process of learning new things and feel blessed by the knowledge He has bestowed upon us.

        Several years back, I felt a strong calling to share this information with others. I have since been given the opportunity to help people who share my similar past. There has been so much glory given to God in this message of hope to those who previously felt eternally cursed. I have since witnessed many gays and lesbians come to Christ, and those who already identified as Christians but previously felt disconnected from God until they realized this alternate translation. They now know they are truly loved, and it is only the condemnation of man that has separated them from feeling loved by God. Because we know that “NOTHING can (truly) separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus us our Lord,” we can only feel unloved by God, and this is the result of the one who works to deceive us.

        So although I am not surprised that I am the first you have met as a Christian lesbian, it is still sad. It shows the state in which the church is in, as they have abandoned this group of people and caused them to feel unwanted to a point of coming to reject God. So now we must ask, where is the Spiritual fruit? Which is better? To damn homosexuals to hell and cause them to steer away from God? Or to see these passages in light of their context and multiply gay believers? It has taken me many years to meet others such as myself, but now God has blessed me with a true Christian community of gay believers. As I mentioned in my last comment, the Holy Spirit is so strongly felt within my church. Nearly all in the congregation are gay and lesbian (including the pastors), yet the message is solely Bible based. It is not a liberal, rainbow flag, gay pride type of church. It is a Bible-based church alive with the Holy Spirit who just happens to be made up of devout gay and lesbian believers. If your family ever happens to come out to Southern California, let me know, as I would be delighted to meet you and take you to my church so that you can meet others like me. My father was raised Catholic and converted to conservative Southern Baptist. Although he loves and accepts me as his daughter, he still holds to the belief that homosexuality is a sin in the Bible. I had only seen him cry twice in my life. Once when I was devastated when my first pet bunny died, and second when he came with me to my church and was so emotionally moved by the people and the message. He claimed that he felt the Holy Spirit stronger in this church than any other. This of course also confused him! How could this be? Why would God make His presence known so strongly within a group who are believed to be cursed and unrepentant? Is this a trick? Is He making Himself known to us in such magnificent ways, only to later disregard us into the lake of fire on the last day?

        Of course this alone is not enough to define wether homosexuality is a sin or not, but it certainly shows the love and grace of God. As we are all sinners, and His grace is sufficient and His power made stronger in our weaknesses. Yet still, if we were to take another sin, such as murder, would one expect to feel the Holy Spirit so strongly within a murder and/or a church filled with active murderers? Likewise, would we feel God speak through a church filled with active rapists? I would have to strongly guess that this would not occur.

        As stated before, sin does seem to have a common theme. Just as the previous Bible verse stated in Romans, harm to some degree seems to be involved within each sin. The only harm that seems to come from homosexuality is the harm caused by those against it who inadvertently encourage gays to reject God after failed attempts of becoming straight or eternally alone. It’s quite a precarious doctrine. These people claim to “hate the sin and love the sinner,” but what type of love can be felt when one is told that one of their most important immutable characteristics and their beloved romantic union is hated by God and worthy of eternal hellfire? It just doesn’t attract the compassion of Christ, even if by good intentions. Perhaps we really should just love the sinner and hate our own sin.

        Now I should note that I don’t feel any such judgment from you, even though I am aware that you view this as a result of our fallen state. For this, I graciously thank you for coming to me with the upmost respect. The fact that God has led you into exploring these things should be acknowledged. You are a seeker of Holy wisdom, and He is showing you that people like me exist. I thank God that He sent you to me and feel honored to be the first one.

        Now it is true that we live in a fallen state. With this is mind, would you consider a physical disability or abnormality a result of the fall? If so, is the person with such a physical abnormality guilty of it as a sin? Knowing that homosexuality itself is an immutable characteristic, should they also be condemned as committing a sin by their very inborn essence? We know that God’s creation is vast with variation and that “there is no longer male and female, as we are one in Jesus Christ.” We also know that “all things work together for good for those who love God” and “what God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” So if homosexuality is in fact a sin and a gay person is a Christian, is the blood of Jesus too weak to cleanse them of their inborn sin nature?

        We are told in the New Creation that humans will not be married or be given into marriage to each other. Also the lion will lay down with the lamb and all creation will be in harmony. The fallen angels and Satan will be cast into the lake of fire and all sin will be snuffed from our existence with The Lord. So now I ask you, which is superior in its perfection? The first creation where Adam was married to Eve in the garden, or the last creation where none are married to each other except for Christ to the church?

        But we must not forget also that the church is the bride of Yeshua, which include ALL believers, male and female. You, as a male, are betrothed to Yeshua, who came to earth in the form of a male. Note that I am not at all saying that this is a “gay marriage.” No earthly marriage can be perfectly compared to the marriage between Christ and the church, but it shows the reality that you are to fill the role of a bride in the New Creation. If gay marriage is an abominable sin, it is strange that those believers born a male would be included in this depiction of the perfect final creation. It seems that the conclusion is that gender really isn’t the focus in the New Creation, which is the perfect final state of eternal existence. So in reflection of the New Creation, can we accept a pairing without the focus on gender?

        So now knowing that we are no longer under The Law, but under grace, we know that our good works are an expression of love towards Yahweh. Each believer has his own gifts as well as individual paths in God’s Will. Some believers have convictions that other believers do not. Each are fully convinced in their own mind. If they do it unto Yahweh with thanks, we are told that Yahweh accepts them. Take the whole of Romans 14 as an example. The “meat eaters” could be considered those gay Christians who feel liberty to be in a God-centered committed union, and the “vegetable eaters” are like those who feel they must abstain in singleness. We are taught that Yahweh accepts them both despite their differing convictions and opinions, yet the most important aspect of all is not to cause someone to stumble OR hinder them by judgment. It is written, “those who eat must not despise those who abstain, and those who abstain must not pass judgment on those who eat; for God accepts them both… Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve to instead never to put a stumbling block or hinderance in the way of another. I know and am persuaded in The Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for the one who thinks it’s unclean. If your brother or sister is being hurt by what you do, you are no longer waking in love. Do not let your good be spoken of as evil… The one who serves Christ is acceptable to God… Let us then pursue what makes for peace and mutual edification.” -Romans 14:3,13-16, 18,19.

        On the last topic, which is more political than anything, is the gay “marriage” thing. I was told that England had previous unions for same-sex couples that were nearly, if not completely, equivalent to marriage. I am not familiar with the structure of rights in your country, but I do know that each state in the U.S. has varied degrees of what they call “civil unions” or “domestic partnerships” which are no where near equivalent to the rights received in traditional marriage. These inferior titles have about 150-300 rights as apposed to the 2,000+ in traditional marriage. So the fight for same-sex marriage out here is more a matter of obtaining equal rights. But if England already had these rights, aside from the marriage title, I can see the frustration in changing the definition due to long-held traditions. I myself wouldn’t mind not having the official government title of marriage, so as long as the full rights were given under a domestic partnership or civil union. Either way, I don’t see much value (other than rights) in the federal or state level of the marriage title. I believe marriage is a Holy Covenant between the couple and God. I believe that one can be married in the eyes of God, yet not be considered married in the eyes of the government. Marriage is much more than a collection of government rights. But to have these equal rights are important as a citizen. But personally, I see this as a whole other aspect of government privilege rather than the Holy Union of marriage itself. The basic major rights here in the U.S. which were not part of the civil union or domestic partnership “package” were mainly tax and property related. My only personal concern was the fact that my spouse wasn’t considered family, and wouldn’t be able to make medical decisions for me or stay with me in the hospital if I were to be sick. Also she couldn’t inherit my retirement if I died first before marriage became legal here. So these things were problematic. But I do see your disappointment in the title of marriage aspect and would have accepted an alternate title with the same rights given. Despite the legality of the governments recognition, I know that my spouse and I have made a Holy Covenant of marriage before God and no one can take that away from us. The only thing I could add to this is that the fact that most would only consider legal marriage as a legitimate marriage has consequently caused a lot of gays to jump from one relationship to another, or not commit and live in promiscuity. So without the ability to legally marry, some gay couples may not take commitment as seriously. Although I must say that this stereo-type is not all true, as I have known many gay and lesbian couples who have been together for decades and it is obvious that the gay “community” longs for commitment, or they wouldn’t be fighting to gain the right to marry.

        Sorry that this is so long. I want to not forget to thank you also for your excerpt about Midrash. This is truly an area of study that I have immersed myself in for quite some time and it’s nice to finally know the title of it! Thank you for your insights! I encourage you to write more to me, as I am very much enjoying our conversation and what we can learn from each other! May Yahweh, the God of Israel, continue to bless you with divine knowledge within His Will and purpose and may you be guided in the truth of His Word!
        Your sister in Christ,
        Moanti
        P.S. I know this is already so long, but realized I failed to touch upon to the cultural aspect. Perhaps I will get more to this in another comment. I do see the commonalities in the ancient world and the modern. I suppose more explanation is needed to express from where I draw these conclusions. It all comes down to the context in which the Scriptures mention homosexual activity and the lack of condemnation towards same-sex coupling as a whole. I will get more to this later, but it follows the same “logic” of condemning all of heterosexuality because the Bible condemns heterosexual prostitution, heterosexual adultery, heterosexual lust, etc.

  9. Raymond Creed says:

    I will not respond in detail to the personal aspects of your highly moving testimony which I think should stand or fall on its own merits. Nor am I likely to be visiting Southern California any time soon. I much prefer visiting places with a strong sense of history. Hence in August martyr and I hope to be visiting Florence and Venice in Italy to sample some renaissance culture. Culturally I’m European and I’m one of the few English men on earth who hate football. Historical sites and art are more my thing while Martyr makes a beeline for anything to do with medical history. I’ve promised her a visit to the dissection theatre at Padua university and will use matchsticks to keep my eyes open. (She spent ages in an old Chemist shop during our visit to Rome. I was glad I had a book to read – but she had to spend putting up with ten hour lectures on Roman History. When we visited the Christian Catacombs I explained, ‘I am in Paradise!’ Martyr had to nudge me to keep quiet and let the guide speak. She later remarked I was like a child in a toy shop.) Southern California may have its attractions but it can’t compete with a European centre of Culture. Like the Vatican which we also visited I think in terms of centuries. It’s this unusual perspective which is helping me to get a handle on the ‘H’ issue.

    Your outlook concerning human nature is fundamentally Augustinian, bordering on the neo-Calvinist. There are echoes of Augustine’s prayer ‘Lord make me chaste but not yet’ in your approach. Although misguided in many ways Augustine did rightly stress the helpless of humanity without grace in your approach and this can be seen in his voluminous writings against the Pelagians which I’ve read. On this particular matter he was highly scriptural although he may have gone overboard in stressing predestination. Having just opened the relevant volume on p.211 I found that Pelagius (who alas, hailed from Britain) was condemned for teaching, “Adam’s sin only injured himself and not the human race; God’s grace and assistance are not given for single actions, but reside in the law and teaching; that the grace of God is bestowed according to our merits; so that grace lies in the will of men, as he makes himself worthy or unworthy of it; that men men cannot be called children of God unless they become entirely free of sin; our victory comes not from God’s help but our own freewill.” Does this appear to be like some of the nonsense inflicted on multi-sexual Christians like yourself over the years? If so it’s the type of heresy that was condemned by Augustine who was one of the inspirational figures by the reformation. An easy way into his work is to read his ‘Confessions.’ He was a man who certainly had to wrestle with sexual issues.

    As a sober realist knowing all too well the depths of my sin, I would concur with you that in MOST cases a homosexual orientation cannot be altered but to argue that this is the same in EVERY cases is to a commit rather illogical weeping generalization. There are instances where God has done a Zechariah 4:6 and it’s rather silly of the Gay Community to behave like scandalized Victorian maiden aunts when this happens. There’s a need on both sides of the divide to recognize that God deals with different people in different ways.I know in my own life that God has miraculously intervened to turn around things in my life. Two years ago I was facing near bankruptcy but through a succession of four unexpected financial provisions my business was saved so I now can afford to pay for a two week holiday in Italy without worrying about it. If He could get me out of the financial hole I was in then I don’t see why He shouldn’t be able to change someone’s sexual orientation if it was for His glory and for the good of the person concerned. With you this is obviously not the case and I’m not going to waste time trying to persuade you to change an orientation which up to this point of time the Holy Spirit has left you with. To be frank I couldn’t think of a more futile exercise. If God wanted to intervene in your life this way, you’d know about it without any foolish pressuring from me. Part of Christian maturity involves being able to distinguish between the areas of our lives that God wishes to remove, those which he wishes to restrain and those which ones he wants to redeem. The only piece of advice I’d presume to give anyone with a marked same sex tendency is to exhort them to apply James 1:5 by asking God to give them the wisdom to discern whether He wants them to follow: –
    An R1 path of removal
    An R2 path of restraint (celibacy in a same Sex context)
    An R3 path of redemption in which God brings whatever good he wishes out of it
    From your writings I gain the impression you’ve gone through this process and have opted for an R3 pathway.

    From your account it appears that the chief error in your background was an evangelical perfectionism which assumed that if you weren’t the perfect all American lady with at least three children in tow you were doomed to Hell. You and others of your orientation suffered from a form of Protestantism that had strayed from its Augustinian roots. It had lapsed into a form of Pelagian ‘can do,’ will worship. We have similar a problem in some of the Evangelical Churches within the UK. Their problem is that they lack a realistic perspective on the falleness of human nature. With regard to sickness and health problems like my arthritic left knee I believe that they are an ultimate result of living in a fallen world of sin and death. This is not to deny the importance of secondary causes nor is it to say that all sickness is always (or even often) the result of personal sin, Jesus personally denied that this was the case in John 9:3 and so must we. To impose an unnecessary burden of guilt on the sick is a very cruel thing to do. That’s something that Faith teachers do and they are detestable to the Lord for it.

    What Pelagianism cruelly ignored was the fact that THE BASIS OF OUR ACCEPTANCE ONLY LIES IN THE ATONING DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST AND NOT THROUGH ANYTHING WE DO ON OUR OWN PART, (Ephesians 2:8-10). God accept you as a lesbian not through any good in your part but because Christ died for you, he accepts me as a grumpy Northern English man because Christ died for me. Some view you as an abomination as a lesbian my response to that is that WE ARE ALL DETESTABLE ABOMINATIONS BEFORE GOD PUTS US RIGHT THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. Even if your lesbianism was as awful as your detractors claim that Christ’s death has acted as a lightening conductor diverting divine wrath from you to His son at Calvary. (Hopefully the same is true of my tendency to swear like a trooper every time I mislay something.) Now here a word of caution is needed. The fact that God wonderfully took all our sins upon Himself at Calvary does NOT mean we don’t have a responsibility to manage the sins in our life or that He won’t chastise us if we take the careless attitude which glibly says ‘I’m saved, therefore I can do what I like.’ Christ himself had no time for that kind of approach, (Luke 12:41-48). One part of Christian freedom is the freedom to take responsibility for our beliefs and actions but with that freedom comes a greater accountability to God, (James 3:1). So where does that leave your lesbianism and my tendency to fly of the handle on the all too frequent occasions I mislay something, the answer is found in Philippians 2:12b which instructs us to “work out our own salvation in fear and trembling.” In my case this involves trying to organize my voluminous array of books and papers so I don’t lose things and then upset my wife and frighten our cat with my anger. In your case the answer will be different – but the principle remains the same. From across eight thousand miles i cannot comment on whether your present relationship is right or not just as you cannot comment whether Martyr is the luckiest lady alive for being married to me! (I think she is, but others seem to disagree.) All I can do is exhort you to apply Philippians 2:12b while being encouraged by the fact that God is clearly at work in you for His good pleasure, (Philippians 2:13). If he wasn’t the nature of our correspondence would be very different.

    The fact that you’re the only truly regenerate active lesbian I’ve come across is not only an indictment on the Church but also on the UK LGBT Christian movement whose ridiculous antics could provide the script for three comedy films.’Gay’ comedy actors like the late Charles Hawtrey and Kenneth Williams would have a field day with them. (So did I, but that’s another story.) In the main what i found them to be clowns playing at Christianity. it was fun to send them up but they weren’t the sort of people you’d want them to be your religious ministers. You must understand that engaging with you like this represents a major breakthrough on my part and that of my wife as well.I never hated members of the Christians multi-sexual Community, it’s just that i couldn’t take them seriously as true believers. My attitude was one of amusement rather than revulsion. All this is baggage that I’ve had to lay aside in order to heed what seems to be a growing call to engage the Christian Multi-sexual Community in a deep and meaningful way. What I’ve been going through in the last few weeks has been like a Damascus Road Conversion. A month ago the possibility that God was calling me to heavily engage in this area would have seemed like the stuff of dreams (or nightmares). It’s one that’s now got both my eldest son and recently married daughter sniggering. This turn around has caused quite a lot amusement in my family. Even my ninety year old mother has been chuckling about it. (She thinks all Gay men are ‘sweet.’) Still I don’t mind brightening up the lives of family members this way.

    Same Sex Marriage in the UK is now water under the bridge. What caused resentment was the way this measure was passed. It wasn’t proposed under any party manifesto, it came as if from nowhere, the consultation process was a farce and the impression conveyed was of arrogant out of touch politicians wasting everybody’s time by rushing through piece of ill thought out, radical legislation without regard for public opinion. The fact is that same Sex marriage represents a very radical step and it certainly needed far more thought, consultation and public debate then it received in the UK. In England a Civil Partnership would have given you and your spouse the rights and financial security you needed. I would have had no objection to that.

    What I have enjoyed about our discussion is that I can relate to you at a purely intellectual level without emotional involvement. (I keep that sort of thing for my cat and my wife in that order!) This is in welcome contrast to another site where you felt that if you disagreed with the lady concerned you’d be hit over the head with a handbag containing a brick, ouch! She was very passionate in her defense of the multi-sexual community but much too emotional for my liking. At least with you i can debate, disagree and still part an an amicable note. As a Northern Englishman hyper emotionalism does nothing for me. When it comes to my writings I don’t do ‘touchy feely.’ Nor will you find any ‘cheap grace’ ‘God affirms you as you are’ psycho-babble. (The fact of the matter is He doesn’t until we come into a relationship with Him through Jesus Christ.) I personally prefer a far more direct approach. Anyway given the manner in which God appears to be calling me to engage heavily with the Christian Multi-sexual Community(CMC) I would appreciate it if you could please answer the following questions: –
    1) What is the best way to engage members of the CMC? (Some ‘do’s and ‘don’ts’ would be helpful)
    2) Would you advise me to join the Gay Christian Network or would they find my highly intellectual approach rather off putting?
    3) Are there any other discussion forums you could recommend?
    4) What are the likely pitfalls of engaging the CMC in America, (beyond the obvious one of wearing an ‘I love Michael Brown T-shirt)?
    5) How well or badly is a rather ironic and dark English sense of humour likely to play in the CMC?
    6) Do Christian multi-sexuals actually have a sense of humour?
    Personally, I believe there’s potential for a symbiotic relationship to exist between the CMC and myself. While I can offer the CMC a lot in terms of teaching, provoking debate, witnessing to the Gospel and providing much needed clarity of thought, the CMC can offer me the creative stimulus, feedback I need to develop as creative writer and thinker.. Should you doubt this claim then samples of my theological can be found at http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/rebuildchristianity and http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/arland I go under various pen names to for search engine purposes.

    For some reason I cannot begin to fathom, there appears to be a mysterious and new compassion for the CMC in heart. There’s a deep longing for them to come into and grow in the things of God. This is indeed something I’ve never experienced before. Our God is indeed a God of surprises.

    • Hello Raymond,
      I am sorry it’s taken me a few days to reply as my week has been quite hectic thus far. I also regret to inform you that I have a very limited time to respond today, so I will touch upon some things, and then explain further when time permits. I want to first say that your last comment did provide me with some laughs, so in answer to your sixth question (“Do Christian multi-sexuals actually have a sense of humour?”), at least for me, I would have to say yes indeed. 😉 I can appreciate your ironic and dark English sense of humor, although I can’t speak for everyone in what you call the “CMC.” There are vast differences among individuals just as you can’t speak for all heterosexuals.

      So before I go on to answer your questions, may I ask you how you plan to utilize this information? Is this to simply engage with gay Christians at a Spiritual level, or are your intentions to collect research to write about your experience in a book? In either case, you should take the time to properly explore your own biases as well as your theorized expectations. If this is purely academic for you, than you might miss an opportunity to grow within yourself. I challenge you to attempt to drop any long-held biases and let The Spirit lead you with an open heart so that you can grow in your own Spiritual walk all the more. God has unexpectedly led you to this area, and this could be more about your own growth than you think.

      1) What is the best way to engage members of the CMC? (Some ‘do’s and ‘don’ts’ would be helpful)
      As I just stated, I can’t speak for this group as a whole anymore than you can speak for all heterosexuals or all those who live in Northern England. But I will attempt to give some generalizations that could prove helpful. You mentioned previously that you highly prefer things discussed at an intellectual level and flee from highly emotional correspondence. It is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that I can engage in this topic without letting my emotions overflow, as I know that such exchanges become quickly counterproductive. Despite this, you must expect some level of emotions from most when engaging, as this is a highly personal topic for them.

      The best course of action is to pray, then to listen, then to contemplate, then pray again. Before giving a response, do so with empathy of knowing that most in the “CMC” have been objects of wrath. Expect for you to be the object of suspicion until trust is gained. Although you’re not holding a sign that says “Faggots burn in hell,” there are always those against us that try to ‘sneak in the back door’ with false compassion who’s ulterior motive is to “teach” us how flawed and wrong we are all in the attempts to “save us” from our impending doom. This never proves to be a helpful exchange. I am sure you can guess that we’ve heard it all before, and telling us homosexuality is a sin is as futile as telling us “guess what? You have a nose on your face!” All of us in the gay Christian community are aware of these anti-homosexual verses, and most have gone through an exhaustive study on the topic much more than any common heterosexual, and/or at the least a prayerful investigation of what they feel God’s will is for their life in light of their orientation. In fact, a big ‘do’ would be to initially keep your opinions on the topic to yourself until full trust is gained. This takes patience and self-control. I would recommend that you keep your initial correspondence at the inquiry level and not seek to debate. This is how you’re going to learn the most and get a deeper understanding of this community. This is not to say that you must keep fully silent except to ask questions, but this could be highly beneficial initially in order to gain trust with many in this community.

      As far as emotions, you mentioned that you reserve your emotions for your cat and your wife (and in that order-hahaha! 🙂 I love it!) So instead of giving you a “mushy” extreme (and probably unrealistic) personal metaphor to relate to, I’ll simply say that the topic itself is as personal and emotional as it can get, as it encompasses their “self,” their partner, their relationship, their love, their physical intimacy, their salvation or damnation and most of all, God’s rejection or acceptance of all the above. You must have the empathy and patience in order to get anywhere and tread lightly, even if it’s difficult and annoying. Not everyone will be so sensitive, but those that are can be very fragile, so a purposeful avoidance of causing more harm is important (follow the directions in Romans 14.) When you’re able to show the compassion and empathy of Christ, then your words will be respected and taken to heart.

      I am a bit of a different ‘animal,’ as I can endure differing opinions, even at the abusive level, without breaching the communication in an emotion-filled explosion. This is because of my own God-given empathy towards those who despise me for what I represent. I don’t blame them because I recognize that their opinions come from a lack of knowledge and understanding of this topic, and that’s okay. Not terribly long ago, I had the same thought process on this topic and myself, so I do ‘get it’ completely. “They know not what they do” is a frequent verse that comes to mind when I am engaging in conversation with such believers. Even with those who do have a nearly full knowledge of these passages and still reject the alternate, I am not going to fly off the handle, as I simply see their’s as a different applicable understanding for whatever purpose in God’s Will. So even though you are NOT a giver of such wrathful hate, recognize that you could be suspected as such before they feel safe with you.

      Lastly in this area, I would recommend coming together with this community as fellow believers. Although many (in both the gay and straight community) have some flawed or misguided doctrines, if they are a true believer in Christ and have a relationship with Him, they are your brother and your sister. So to engage as fellow members in the body of Christ without focus on sexuality is also a helpful tool. Seek to know their faith and walk with Christ more-so than their doctrinal beliefs. “By their fruits you shall recognize them.”

      As a general warning, I have come across many “gay affirming churches” who seem to put more emphasis on politics and rights than Scripture. I do not agree with this nor do it feel comfortable in a church like this. Churches should be God centered, not gay centered. Our identity is in Christ! Sadly though, due to the lack of most churches acceptance, sometimes these gay churches are the only places where they can attend without judgment and/or excommunication.

      2) Would you advise me to join the Gay Christian Network or would they find my highly intellectual approach rather off putting?

      This depends who you talk to and what your purpose is to engage with the gay Christian community. The Gay Christian Network (GCN) is a great resource for LGBT Christians and heterosexual Christians who wish to connect with this community as allies. It is highly diverse in its members’ denominations and doctrinal beliefs. One must also understand that so much ‘religious abuse’ has been inflicted upon these people (to differing levels) that some are in very vulnerable states with their faith. Not all are joyfully at peace with The Lord, as many are still concerned with their own self-judgment. But then of course there are those that have peace for whatever calling they have and seem to have a more stable faith. It really depends who you talk to… So if you were to go on there for a day and meet a few people, you wouldn’t get ‘a taste’ for all gay Christians.

      Although this group was made to be a place for all gay Christians, it is divided in one major sense. There represents two sides, yet three sides exist. There is the ‘Side A’ which are LGBT Christians who believe that God blesses same-gender unions in a Christ centered monogamous committed partnership. Then there are the ones in ‘Side B’ who believe that all LGBT Christians are called to celibacy because homosexual sexual relationships in any context is a sin. The beliefs within both of these sides also vary widely. The third side which is not acknowledged in its own forum (as the side A and side B and even “side B curious” forums exist), is the Side X, which are LGBT members who believe that they should and can become straight. I have written several articles on this topic and read the entire 5 volumes of research into same-gender change efforts which have been invalidated by all the major psychological associations. After reading as well as interviewing one of the top reparative therapists in the U.S., I have myself come to the statistically based conclusion that there may be a minute handful who APPEAR to have had a change in orientation, but all who claim this “change” admit to previous opposite sex attractions at some point in life before their “change,” so this simply represents bisexuals who chose the opposite sex. The other key ingredient with these “success stories” are those who were massively sexually abused as children, and it seems that they falsely identified themselves as gay based on this and were able to reconnect with their original orientation after working through their sexual abuse. I have yet to meet or read validated research of a fully 100% homosexual person emerging into a heterosexual. The most deceiving part of this research is what is considered “successful change.” Even the reparative therapist admitted that anyone who simply noticed “a small reduction in the frequency of their same-sex attractions” are considered “successfully changed!” This is silly, in that anyone can have a reduction in their attractions to anyone if they simply redirect their attention from looking at people and distract themselves. This doesn’t change ones sexual orientation, but simply muffles their existing attractions. The fact that thousands have attempted to change and prayed diligently for most of their lives without any true success should say something about God’s view on this. Why doesn’t He change homosexuals into heterosexuals for those who truly want it more than anything else? Is it because homosexuals are doomed to burn in the lake of fire anyway, or is this something not in need of changing?

      Sorry I sort of trailed off there… But back to the issue at hand. I’m sure you could find some value in GCN, but there must be something known. The site is not designed for debates. It is quite strict on the matter and for a purpose. GCN members are not to impose their own personal convictions on others, as the last thing a “safe place” needs is more judgment. In addition, a lot of these members are in a transition and only just learning to reconcile their duel identities which have so often been viewed as contradictory. So to debate them or trash their theology could cause literal life-threating harm. It truly is astonishing how many LGBT people have contemplated or attempted suicide at some point due to feeling so utterly worthless or evil.

      But aside from this, I must say that the founder of GCN, Justin Lee, is definitely a follower of Christ and holds to Side A theology. However, whenever I’ve seen him in a public capacity, he recoils from debate to such an extreme that his “arguments” appear weak at best. I know he represents an organization that caters to both Side A and B beliefs and doesn’t want to offend or cause harm, but it makes for a weak stance for Side A in the public eye, which to me is frustrating. I really don’t want to appear pretentious, but I truly feel that I have much more to offer in shared knowledge on the Biblical topics concerning homosexuality than that written in the Side A perspective of “The Great Debate” on GCN. For this reason, I have been asked by many to write a book encompassing these alternate translations.

      On a side note, if you do ever join GCN, I do have someone in mind that you may be able to talk to that has high intellect and I think would appreciate your approach and humor… 🙂 He is a devout believer who has been called to celibacy, but holds to Side A beliefs despite his individual call. He also has one of the most interesting testimonies I have ever heard.

      3) Are there any other discussion forums you could recommend?
      Unfortunetly, I am not involved with any other forums aside from GCN, although I know others exist. I find the most public ‘Spiritual food’ from my church and communion with fellow believers such as my wife and Christian friends (both gay and straight) that I have met over the years.

      4) What are the likely pitfalls of engaging the CMC in America, (beyond the obvious one of wearing an ‘I love Michael Brown T-shirt)?
      Perhaps the biggest pitfall would be what I already touched upon in question 1. Because so many have been raised with conservative doctrine and expected perfection of sexual orientation in order to be acceptable to God, it’s difficult for us to open up to straight Christians due to previous rejection. My physical appearance is very feminine and most without knowing me would consider me heterosexual. I have encountered Christians who were touched by my faith, trust and wisdom in The Lord, but I know some of these same people would have a totally different view of me if they knew of my orientation. It’s funny you mention the perfection aspect, as other sinful acts are so dismissed in the American church! You can be a Christian [fill in the sin blank] and still be welcomed in American churches, but if you’re gay, you mine as well be Satan himself. There are clear levels placed upon sin in the U.S. culture. Some will say “we are all sinners,” but if asked, they believe homosexuality is at least in the top two worst of sins next to murder. But it seems that repentant murderers are accepted much more readily in our church culture than even a celibate homosexual. American evangelical culture uses homosexuality as it’s favorite target as a “sign” of the end times (like Sodom) and to explain the ills of the world away.

      5) How well or badly is a rather ironic and dark English sense of humour likely to play in the CMC?
      This just depends who you talk to of course. When you are engaging with someone on such a personal topic, they may recoil if they take you the wrong way and think you’re making fun of them. But others who share your wit would find it light hearted and an ice breaker. So just be aware of whom you’re engaging. I must say again that I quite enjoy your humor and you have caused me to laugh out loud on more than one occasion.

      The biggest piece of advice I can give you on this venture is to enter it with an open mind and try to fight against expectations and pre-conceived beliefs. Truly live by Proverbs 18:13 and you will find what you’re looking for. Repeated for emphasis, be sure to pray, listen, contemplate, pray again for discernment and then respond with empathy. As I said before I don’t have much time to write, although I did end up spending more time than planned. I still have much more to say and will as time permits. I am so highly enjoying our correspondence and I am praying for you daily and know that The Lord will bestow more knowledge upon you in this area. I can feel His love for you as a seeker of His face, and I know He is working in your life in magnificent and unexpected ways! Thank you again for your questions and comments. Please don’t hesitate to ask or comment further…
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

  10. midrashcreed says:

    Thank you for your detailed and very helpful response. Continue your prayers and pray also for my wife Martyr who’s also faces a major challenge to her thinking. I would like to reply in depth but the pressures of my business means that I am unable to do so at this present moment in time. Also I think it’s wiser to prayerfully mull over your reply during the next few days. Hence my response for now is rather sketchy. At present a part of the challenge is to come to terms with new feeling. There are emanating from within me what can only be termed pulses of a gentle love longing to reach out to the multi-sexual community especially in America. This is something I didn’t have a month ago. I never hated multi-sexuals; indeed I found some of them to be rather comical, but this love and longing to share my gift with this community and to share the wonderful benefits of Christ’s atoning death is utterly unprecedented. It’s like a Damascus conversion and the intensity of this experience matches my own actual conversion through direct revelation in October 1975. Technically, it’s called a theophany or revelation of divine love, but I never dreamed that it would take the form it has. There’s just this strange and at times overpowering longing to reach out and engage with the MCM.

    On a cautionary note I hope at the end of June to take a week or two out and seek the Lord over this issue. I shall only present him with some very difficult questions. It’s only after this retreat period is over that I will come to a final decision whether to engage or not to engage. There will also have to be a full condition with Martyr. So at present it’s a case of ‘will he or won’t he?’ The answer is I do not know.

    As a further cautionary measure I may seen sample of my thinking of the subject to the GCN to see whether they find it acceptable or not. If not fair enough and we can go our separate ways quite amicably. As you will gather I’m subjecting this process to a thorough discernment process. On this matter especially it’s better to be safe than sorry. I know that I can offer the CMC an awful lot, I know that on both sides of the great Gay divide there’s a massive amount of sloppy thinking that needs tidying up. I also know that at present I’ve been hammering out a new homo-realist approach that would allow me to be a Side A, Side B and Side XYZ person simultaneously! (Now work that one out!) If I related to the GCN it would as an ‘associate’ rather than ‘ally’ because I believe that to meddle as an Englishman in America’s bitter cultural war could provoke a justified feeling of resentment. As far as possible I do wish to remain impartial. That way I could also retain a healthy objectivity.

    I hope to engage at both a spiritual and academic level as I see no conflict of interests between the two. Also I find the whole multi-sexual thing (no I’m not referring to ‘Thing’ in the Adams Family) so intellectually and creatively stimulating that it’s bound to find its way into my books. One issue I’m interested in whether today’s explosion in multi-sexuality is related to the breakdown of the traditional male role of wage earner and provider. Near where I live, there’s been such a collapse in industry that the traditional working class male role has been lost. There are very few jobs where they can begin to find a role in society. While the older men often eke out a twilight existence on state benefits the younger men often sink into the underclass. (They played a prominent part in the UK riots of August 2011.) I wonder whether this situation applies to the rust belt areas of your country? Having come from a traditional working class home that has been blighted by this loss of traditional role, my wife has wondered whether today’s men have become so ‘hopeless’ that women are forced to find comfort in each other. (Thankfully, she married a wonderful exception, at least that’s what I tell her! ) Just curious to know what your perspective on this issue would be. (By the way does ‘curious’ have any sexual connotation, I’ve come across it a lot in connection with multi-sexual subjects?)

    On a lighter note, my ninety year old mother is also chuckling at this development. (She’s the one who calls my wife ‘The Martyr’ or ‘the Saint’ and loves to hear the latest family gossip.) Having matured in the era of Liberaceshe thinks all Gay Men are sweet. I was wonder whether you could persuade Justin to send her a picture of himself in a diamond encrusted cape she’d love it! Mind you she fancied herself as Scalett O Hara in Gone with the Wind. Instead she had to make do with the generous mention in the family History I’m writing.

    Anyway work pressures call, so I think I must close now. I hope to be back with a more considered response to your points in a few days time. Once again many thanks for your input.

    • Hi Raymond!
      Thank you for your response. I think it is wise to take several days to mull this over, as you said. I am also impressed that you are taking a retreat time to prayerfully wait on The Lord for discernment as you go forward in this. The fact that this has impacted you at the level that it has should speak for itself. There is a true calling that I feel for you as I pray for you in these past days. I will wait for you as well with patience to see if you intend to proceed. With everything I know of you thus far, I feel that someone of your high intellect and close connection with our Creator having this experience speaks volumes and should not be dismissed. Having these revelations even at its “embryonic stages” is noteworthy. Imagine what could happen when it becomes “fully grown!” I pray that The Holy Spirit leads you further for the Glory of Yahweh, His Divine Will be done.

      I feel it should be said that I believe that many heterosexual Christians often confuse their “yuck” feeling for conviction that homosexuality is sinful because they would never naturally want to engage in this act themselves. They believe that it is wrong because it feels completely wrong to them, and rightfully so. This “gross out feeling” should be distinguished from conviction applied to all people. As ironically, we as homosexuals have the same “yuck” feeling when thinking about engaging in heterosexual relations, but know not to place this feeling as wrong or sinful for everyone. It is a homosexual union that feels natural to us, and heterosexual union entirely unnatural for us personally. So discernment is key to distinguish between these issues.

      You mentioned perhaps anticipating that you could come to a place of simultaneous Side A, Side B and Side X. I must note that MOST wouldn’t believe this could be possible, as it would seem highly contradictory. Aside from that, I may be the only gay Christian that you will encounter (aside from my wife) that believes that this is entirely possible in the scope of everything. Why and how? Because we feel that Yahweh deals in a multitude of diverse ways with His followers according to their individual calling to complete His purpose. We believe that for some, Yahweh blesses them with a God-centered committed monogamous partnership so that they can profit the Kingdom. For others, Yahweh blesses them with the gift of celibacy so that they may profit the Kingdom. Lastly, for some (who truly do seem to be exclusively bisexual or subject to repeated child abuse), Yahweh blesses them with a heterosexual union to profit the Kingdom. For the latter, I believe that a healing of abuse is what brings glory to God and sometimes a chance at dual biological offspring is a reason. Who are we to know what child is born exclusively for Yahweh’s future purpose?

      I know that “all things work together for good for those who love God.” The problems that can get in the way of us staying on the path is to question His guidance or be confused by the guidance of humans over God. You will see this quite frequently in the CMC, as many (especially in Side B and Side X) may be at liberty to live Side A, but retract due to putting more faith in human interpretation rather than God. Another pitfall is a lack of knowledge. Many in Side B and X have a limited knowledge of the alternate translations of Scripture. I see this as a puzzle, and many do not have all the pieces, consequently they don’t see the full picture which prevents them from having peace. Furthermore, there are the “added pieces” of the puzzle laying around, which represent the extreme pro-gay doctrines that counterproductively base their beliefs on conjecture. A full exploration of the original Text while being guided by the Holy Spirit’s discernment is key.

      Although there’s a lot of puzzle pieces when we magnify this topic at its microscopic level, it is still small in the scope of all Scripture. Just as homosexuals make up a very small portion of the population, I see that the Scripture encompasses a very small topical application about homosexual acts. The extremists (on both sides) like to place “gay things” in places that I feel they don’t fit. We should not inflate this in the false affirming or false condemning sense. So on a side note, a sizable amount of Christians inflate the anti-gay doctrine beyond the six passages that appears to condemn such acts. Any mention of “abomination,””fornication,” “strange flesh,” “without natural affection,” “Sodom” or “Sodomites” is seen as a direct additional condemnation of homosexuality. Taking just one as an example, the mention of “Sodomites” is one of our biggest downfalls. If you are familiar with the original Hebrew Text, you will see that many Bible translations falsely insert “Sodomites” in place of “qadesh” (קָדֵשׁ) which is clearly defined in Hebrew as “temple prostitute” (either male or female). This is not an area of debate, but a clear word with a clear definition. Here is one demonstration of how we place modernized concepts into Ancient writings. “Sodomy” wasn’t a word equated with anal sexual relations until the Middle Ages. During this re-definition period, it meant any form of non-procreative sex, then evolved into anal sexual relations. Anytime we hear the word “Sodomite,” we first think of gays, then any anal sex, and then maybe the residents of Sodom. So when one sees the word “Sodomite” in a modern translation of Scripture where “temple prostitute” should rightfully be, it fuels the fire for more gay condemnation. This is one example where cultural differences in semantics have drastically impacted our modern understanding of Scripture. So although there are many parallels to ancient and modern cultural application as we have discussed, these differences in cultural semantics do make an impact.

      Back to the topic of GCN, my wife and I both agree that this may not be a favorable representation of all gay Christians. I pray that you are able to come into contact with those who can bond with you at the Spiritual level without becoming offended, overly emotional or speculative. There is one member in particular who I will not name, but has signs of a clear mental illness. This is probably the most emotional of its members and has at times been so angry with God and other GCN members. This person is probably the most easily offended and has a shaky faith. Despite this, you can see that the other GCN members come to this person with the compassion of Christ and don’t seek to upset this individual further. Furthermore, although some members who are not yet at peace are in a stage of anger towards God, they have enough faith to want to still seek God, despite their anger. This anger is mainly due to displacing the hateful Christians upon God, and/or not understanding why God would condemn them for loving the same-gender. So I feel I should warn you of these things beforehand.

      It should also be acknowledged that most churches (in every capacity) don’t “air their dirty laundry” publicly, so to compare a reserved group of heterosexual believers to these CMC believers may be an unfair comparison. Not to say that homosexuality is “dirty,” but rather that the internal battle presented within these believers is very raw. Consequently, you will be able to view the open closets of these believers unlike most who properly keep their struggles hidden. (I guess that last “closet” analogy was more fitting than I intended. I was going to say “they keep their private drawers open,” but that could be taken the wrong way! Haha.)

      In response to some of your most recent statements, I do not believe that homosexuality is caused by any change in the male and female role or working class. I do see a change in these roles of course, but I don’t feel the two are related to any “increase” in a homosexual orientation. The only correlation that could exist is that those who were already born with a homosexual orientation (especially women in this instance) feel more confident to live their life as intended, rather than feeling forced to be with a male in order for financial sustainability. This does not mean that the change in roles has caused homosexuality per se, but rather may have caused it to be more visible. It might be compared to the news media, in that whatever story they cover makes it appear that there is an increase in such things, but it would have still existed behind the scenes out of the public eye none the less. This is the same for homosexuality, as it has always existed, but has just become more visible and open due to a growing acceptance. But I do find this correlation in visibility intriguing, as you might be onto something, as long as you don’t attribute it as the cause of sexuality.

      As a special note, I want to share something with you (first before anyone else) that has come to me just recently… I have heard it said that the growing acceptance of homosexuality is “a sign of the end times.” Because we are taught that “lawlessness will increase,” many believe that this acceptance of gays is the acceptance of evil. What they fail to recognize is that Daniel and John also prophesied that something else would also increase towards the end; which is an increase in KNOWLEDGE. These passages have been interpreted to be either an increase in Scriptural knowledge and/or general knowledge. We know that general knowledge (both scientific and technology) has increased more in our lifetime than any other. In either sense, who is to say that a better understanding of sexual orientation (both in the Scriptural and scientific sense) could be applied within the “increase in knowledge” rather than to place it in the “increase of evil” category?

      In addition, when we see Yeshua’s mention of Sodom, it is actually in the context of possible redemption. Matthew 11 shows Yeshua criticizing the cities who rejected His message and miracles. He goes onto say, “If the mighty works which were done here had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.” (Matthew 11:23) This clearly shows that if Yeshua had been present in Sodom’s day and entered into the city, they would have believed and accepted His message and become righteous followers saved from destruction! It should be noted that I don’t believe that Sodom was in fact a city full of gays, but rather a city who raped foreigners [like Gibeah in Judges 19], engaged in idol worship and committed many other sins. However, if one does connect Sodom to homosexual acts of any kind, we see that Yeshua reveals that Sodom would have believed and been saved from destruction! In either case, this once again shows the amazing power of Christ’s atonement and the importance of not rejecting His message!

      I will continue to pray for you to be rightly guided by The Lord and have joyful anticipation of what you could learn and teach to this community! I am also praying for your wife to be touched with Divine understanding on this topic so that she may support you as you proceed. I shall patiently wait your reply…
      -Moanti
      P.S. On a side note, I am quite curious to hear your testimony and the revelation you received in October 1975.

  11. midrashcreed says:

    Having comeback from several hours of engaging three Muslim families in my business I find this to be a most refreshing correspondence. However recent far right Klu Klux Klan type activity in their city provided an opportunity to share a little of my faith present although one female contact remarked “Islam is the superior religion because it teaches people how to behave.” I was in the eye of yet another storm although the government and media have quickly blacked out what were a series of very unpleasant provocations designed to incite riots. One Iman had an army bible thrust in front of him by vicious looking men in army fatigues and was told to denounce their founder as a false prophet, accept Jesus as his Saviour or perish in Hell. Leaflets were left in mosque accusing Muslims of being child molesters. The Imans had quite a hard time in keeping their young men under control. I’m quite glad to be dealing with the ‘H’ issue after all that. it gave some insight of what you multi-sexuals have to put up in America. Christian fundamentalist lunacy is creeping into my neck of the woods. The group concerned appear to be ran by a man with a string of criminal convictions.

    Thank you for answering my question concerning the loss of the traditional male role. Your answer was both interesting and informative. Yet another point for me to mull over.
    Yes I heard it said that an increase in homosexuality is a sign of the end times. If it came from the preacher I think you mean he’s the most dangerous type of bigot – a talented bigot who happened to be right on a succession of issues. I clashed with him when he was based in my neck of the woods in 2001. He was quite a brilliant expositor of Midrash but denounced Multi-sexuals for being ‘nancy boys’ and ‘Sodemites’ and that was when he was being polite about them! I broke with him for these and other hate-filled diatribes. When I tried to have it out with him he returned the second letter I sent to him torn to shreds. I think he took offense at my observation that he had the mind of a Harvard professor and the temper of a New York Gang leader. He also wrongly accused me of a serious professional malpractice that could have seriously damaged my career.

    Ironically, it was his insights into Midrash that have equipped me to be a potential blessing to the CMC. If he knew this I think he’d screw his face up in rage before exclaiming. “these filthy Sodomites must be under divine wrath if God is sending RC to them.” He’d take the view we deserved one another.Sadly, he’s still around mixing brilliant expositions with hateful diatribes and conducting pointless feuds with those who don’t agree with him – the latest one being on the profound question as to whether Christians can look forward to a pre or mid tribulation rapture. The wife of the pastor trying to reconcile the two men involved said it was like baby sitting. He would have done me more damage except he knew I could cause him even more trouble. Compared to other I got away from it. Like most bullies he knew when to back off. All in all he was quite a nasty piece of work. So you see I have been on the receiving end of some very nasty Christian fundamentalist extremism. Thankfully, I gave back as good as i got. I had to in order to survive.

    Having said that however, I must through gritted teeth and closed eyes say, that if Sodom and Gomorrah is to be equated with mass rape then he may have a point. Look at what’s happening in parts of Africa. Also I think you have a point as well. Sorry to say that both you and a bigot who despises everything you stand for could both be right but that is my objective, professional opinion. You must understand that this prince of bigots got to be where he was through being right on issues like the large level of corruption in Pentecostalism (which I saw myself). The problem with this man was that I believe that he had a genuine call to bring midrash hermeneutics back to the Church but made a ship wreck of it through an uncontrolled anger. Perhaps his example should serve as a warning to us all. The only one who can match him in the area of Midrash Exposition is yourself. But if God wishes to bless the CMC through the use of Midrash He will do so regardless of those who think they own a copyright to it.

    I’m becoming more convinced that the reason God has allowed our prolonged encounter will be found in Proverbs 27:17. We are to sharpen one another up. Martyr likes your correspondence and we’ve had some long discussions about this possible new direction into the MCM. I presume you show your spouse our material so send her a ‘hi’ from Northern England. Martyr has remarked that our style of writing is so much alike that she wonders whether you’re another long lost relative waiting to be re-discovered. (One was re-discovered through my family History research.) I replied to that by saying, “I’d only know the answer to that question if her spouse is like you!.” By the way do you and your spouse follow the time honoured lesbian custom of keeping a cat? We have a very grumpy one at home.

    I gather you didn’t manage to persuade Justin to send my mother a picture of him in a glittering Liberace style cape. Aw shucks you can’t win them all. On that note I must end. I will reply further to your points when I have the time.

    • Hello Raymond, and also hello to Martyr as well! 🙂 and you are correct in that I do share our correspondence with my spouse and she says to tell you both hello! I must say, I quite like her unique name, as I have never come into contact with an individual with such a name thus far in the U.S. I will start out on a lighter note this time and answer your question about the “lesbian custom” of keeping a cat. I have to admit that this stereotype must be true to some extent, as we have 3 felines in all. 😉 We have a boy kitty who is a huge fluff ball and quite plump with massive paws. His personality is the most meek, as he does whatever the “women” want, but is very loving. Our grumpy girl is a short haired tiny calico (sister of our big boy) and last but certainly not least, our most affectionate and intelligent 3-legged cat. Our first 2 were strays, and our 3-legged baby was a rescue who got hit by a car and nearly died from infection and was in “foster care” recovering for several years until she found the perfect home with us. She is our miracle cat and ironically, can run much faster than our other 4-legged cats! Since we don’t have human children, they are all our sweet babies!

      So now to more serious topics. That is awful about Klu Klux Klan and what they did to the Muslims. (On a side note, I am using an iPad to write this and the auto-correct just replaced “awful” with “awesome!” I’m so thankful I caught that! Ahhh!) Extreme Fundamentalism can be so dangerous. On the “H” side of things, our biggest condemner is the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas. They are probably the most hateful fundamentalist church in the public eye who even picket the funerals of gay people all over the country and use a megaphone to “preach” how the person is currently in that moment burning in hell. They literally blame 9/11 (among all other disasters) exclusively on God’s wrath on gay people! The preacher of Westboro recently passed away, but the church continues to picket funerals with crude signs. Ironically, the pastor who conducted the last picketed funeral held up a sign back to them that said “We are sorry for your loss and are praying for your family!” This church has caused more damage to the widespread of America than just harm to gays. It has caused many heterosexual people to be turned off from Christianity, falsely believing that all churches are like this! So this hate filled fundamentalism bears a deeply diseased fruit that has the potential to spoil the trees next to it.

      The bigoted preacher that you spoke of sounds interesting. It is a blessing that he helped you gain insights into Midrash, but sad that he holds beliefs that can cause such harm to people. I am not sure what point he had that made you come to the conclusion that we are both right due to Sodom. I am not offended, but just feel that more explanation is necessary. Hopefully I won’t go off track from your train of thought. I think there needs to be more exploration on the difference between homosexual acts and homosexual orientation. The gang-raping that took place in cities such as Sodom and also Gibeah (compare Genesis 19 to Judges 19) were not gay males. Gang rape (or rape of any form) is not committed as an act of attraction, but an act of power. In these times, residents of the city would violently rape both males and females for power, punishment [causing humiliation], or payment (for passing through their land and using their recourses as a foreigner.) Males were considered of more value in this time, so this explains why they often got more power/payment gratification out of such an act. The best comparison in the modern day would be the gang-rape acts committed in the prison system. These do not represent gay people who were born with an attraction to the same gender, but rather an act of humiliation to show power. Even at the level of consent, sexual acts between the same gender in prison do not represent gay people, but rather a homosexual sex act due to lack of access to their preferred opposite gender. I have recently heard this termed as “an emergency act of homosexuality.” (Haha!) I have sometimes heard that homosexuals end up in prison much more than heterosexuals, and this is all due to the lack of understanding between homosexual orientation and homosexual sex acts. This also falsely leads people to believe that one can “turn gay.”

      So any acts of gang rape, single rape, or even consensual sex between otherwise heterosexuals should not ever represent the gay community, [or those with a trait of exclusive same-gender attraction.] If we are to term them as such, then any gay or lesbian who happens to have any sexual encounter with the opposite gender would be termed “heterosexual,” and we know this does not cause this to happen.

      Another such confusion comes into play with child molestation. Many studies have been done on this population and ironic as it is, the number of true exclusive homosexual adults perpetrating on children is so minuscule that it’s barely measurable. You see, sexual orientation is a separate issue from child molestation. Let me properly explain…

      Based on empirical research, two types of child molesters exist. The terms for these have escaped my mind at the moment, but I will simply explain them as type 1 and type 2. Type 1 only perpetrate on children and claim to have no adult sexual orientation (in other words, they are only interested in children rather than adults.) They are shown to have never developed an adult orientation and perpetrate based on the age in which this development has stopped. The second, and most common, are those with an adult orientation who perpetrate on children. Many times they have gone through a traumatic event which has caused them to regress to an interest in children, but simultaneously still being sexually attracted to adults.

      Now here is the kicker… The multitude of peer reviewed studies on the topic have found that the vast majority of child molesters have a HETEROsexual adult orientation regardless of the gender that they molest (Less than 1% of molesters had an adult gay orientation.) The most common Type 2 molesters are the men you see who are often married to women while simultaneously molesting little boys or girls. The separation comes into play when we see that it is not an attraction to gender that draws them to the children, but the access that they can obtain to children. Their interest is not to the gender, but to the age (usually either to pre-pubescent or post-pubescent children.) It could probably be said that it is a worldwide belief that little girls are more vulnerable than boys. Thus, many girls are not left alone with non-familial adult males. But boys on the other hand are frequently placed under the supervision of other adult males. The molesting priests in the Catholic Church were not closeted homosexuals, but rather had private access only to the boys, as the girls were put in the care of the nuns. When some were anonymously interviewed, they admitted that they would have gone for the girls as well if they had been available.

      So you see, this all has to do with age and most importantly access, not orientation. So the problem is that most are under the wrong impression that all adult males who perpetrate on male children are gay, thus the logic becomes that a drastic amount of gays are child molesters! It is sometimes this misconception alone that has caused the Christian community to feel justified in believing that being gay is a sin because they see these molestations and displace the blame on the gay community. I dare to say that this misconception could even be causing more molestations to be committed, as the parents have a false sense of security when leaving there children in the hands of adult heterosexuals, believing that they would not have any interest. This misconception is disastrous! Most ironic of all is that based on these intensive studies, we can statistically conclude that children are actually safer with gay and lesbian adults, as they rarely are ever shown to molest! So both the misconception of gays being child molesters and rapists all comes down to lack of knowledge about sexual orientation.

      So altogether, when we view Sodom, we should focus upon the attempted gang-rape of angels which is an act of grotesque violence. To focus on the gender defeats the whole purpose! When we see a rape in the news, we don’t simply focus on the gender of the victim and perpetrator. It is the rape itself that is the crime, for whatever purpose. We can apply the same thoughtful process to child molestation, as we know that the act itself is harmful to the one in a less powerful position. A child cannot properly consent and should never be subject to this act of harm. Lastly, let’s now compare this to a monogamous consensual loving lifelong committed relationship between two people of the same gender. Do you see the massive difference?

      Sadly I must go for now, but eagerly await your reply! I shall continue to pray for you and your family!
      -Moanti
      P.S. Proverbs 27:17 is most definitely fitting to describe our connection! Also, I do have a family lineage on my mothers side from England, although I am not sure which part. None the less, I see our commonalities in style. 😉

      • midrashcreed says:

        I can only be rather brief in my reply to you here as I’m drafting a longer response to some of the points you made earlier. You may be interested to note that yesterday afternoon my eldest son visited me and brought along with him his housemate who’d been in a lesbian relationship for over a year. He seemed to take the line if you’ve got your lesbian friend in California I can now bring along my flatmate. (She’s a pleasant but extremely shy girl in her early twenties and both you and your spouse would do well to pray for her salvation.) He and she appear to think our contact is a laugh. Mind you she was quite adamant that she ‘WAS a lesbian. When my son was sharing a house with her and her flatmate it was he who had to pacify the frequent quarrels between them.
        It seems that in the UK we have a very different attitude to homosexuality. Here, there’s a tendency to view it as an amusing oddity rather than vile, hell sending sin. In part, this is due to the influence of all the ‘Gay’ entertainers we’ve had over the last few decades. I remember how some like Kenneth Williams and Charles Hawtrey (who starred in the ‘Carry On’ films) used to make me laugh as a child. Even far Right Groups like the English Defense League have an ‘open’ stance toward homosexuality. They take the view ‘they maybe queer, but they are OUR queer and if that annoys the Muslims all the better.’ During the war some of them were treated as regimental mascots or if they were ‘pests’ they were shunted of to the Light Entertainments Division. The main problem facing homosexuals in UK society is that until recently, few people took them seriously. They were regarded as being a comical turn and little more. Thankfully, this helped to spare us from the kind of polarized hatred you have in America – although homosexual men are under danger of attack if they are silly enough seek casual sex from mentally disturbed youths in remote areas. There was also an outbreak of ‘queer bashing’ in London during the 1970s. The main perpetrators were working class skinheads. However, these tended to be exceptions rather than the rule. Certainly, my more ‘ironic’ British approach to this issue has greatly facilitated this dialogue between us – although I do take you seriously as a Christian believer.

        We did though hear a lot about Fred Phelps through the Louis Theroux documentaries. They provoked much discussion between my eldest son and I when he was younger. He exclaimed ‘Dad he’s even worse then you!” which I took as a backhanded compliment. Anyway, he now feels that I’ve mellowed enough to bring along his lesbian housemate to see me without Martyr being present. (I sense there may be a little father-son rivalry here even though he had to make do with an ‘ex.’)

        Martyr is not the real name of my wife but is one I’ve given her for identity protection purposes. My mother and sister do call her ‘the martyr’ or the ‘Saint’ opining loudly in my presence ‘how on earth has she stuck by him for thirty five years!’ They don’t quite get the fact that that Martyr is the most blessed woman alive precisely because she is married to me! She does of course agree with me on that point.

        I will clarify the earlier points made about Sodom. As bible prophecy repeatedly makes clear one sign of the end times is lawlessness. If this wasn’t the case it’s hard to see how the anti-Christ who is ‘the man of lawlessness’ could sweep to global prominence. Scripture also makes clear that patterns of sinful behaviour do re-occur across the ages. Now if, as you say, the main sin Sodom was gang rape of the kind seen in prisons then it’s possible to fit your view with that of the talented bigot I mentioned previously. It just makes sense to assume that this particular kind of lawlessness will become increasingly manifest as Christ’s return draws near. The preacher I mentioned would of course have a very different interpretation of what the main sin at Sodom was. But whatever it exactly was, it would be unwise, given the track record of human history, to assume that it was an unusual ‘one of event.’ The whole incident has lessons that are deeply relevant for today. This belief in repeated patterns of human behaviour explains why I think that both of you could be right in your interpretation of bible prophecy. I did however find your use of Daniel 12:4 and John 16:12 quite striking in its brilliance and this serves to confirm my impression that you have a genuine calling as a bible expositor. You certainly keep me on my toes!

        I will not comment on the other issues you raised because they are so sensitive that they are best dealt with at length or not dealt with at all. Limited time only permits the last alternative. I will however mention in passing, I’m a rather mistrustful of the Psychology Profession which seems to be subject to all manner of fads and politically driven agendas. During the 1960’s ECT was all the fashion and it was a treatment which accelerated the mental decline of my late father-in-law, (He became a sad, shambling wreck of a man.) Now the fashion seems to be to give anyone claiming Transgender inclinations the chop! Although now a little outdated, the research conducted Rosenhan (1973) did highlight the subjective nature of many of its classifications. Admittedly, Psychology has to some extent, cleaned up its act since then but I still believe that some of Rosenhan’s criticisms are still valid.

        My testimony will also have to wait. One that would be especially valuable is a description of the process whereby my wife and I got called into this direction. However, as this is an ongoing story it will have to wait. Just let’s say we’ve come a long way in a very short space of time. From being mobbed by highly aggressive teenage lesbians in the aftermath of last August’s Manchester’s Gay Pride March to debating with you is indeed something of turn around. I’m glad to say that you and your spouse appear to be rather nicer then then ones I encountered in Manchester (although that wouldn’t be hard) : (
        Returning to a lighter note I’m glad that you and your spouse maintain the time honoured lesbian custom of keeping cats. We have one here – a very grumpy male who often jumps onto our bed during certain special moments. As I once exclaimed to Martyr, “there’s three of us in this marriage.” Recently, he upset Martyr by punching her on the face with his paw. If he gets too annoying we know who to send him to. he does have one redeeming feature which is that he allows us to tickle him on his tummy.

        Anyway continue your prayers. This morning, as I prayed, I was directed to the words in Isaiah 6:5-6. It’s becoming increasingly clear that an important part of my call could be to focus members of the CMC on the many-sided benefits atonement for it is there that true forgiveness and wholeness can be found. After that there was another anointing of the Holy Spirit characterized by praying in tongues. overall, there appears to be frequent explosions of joy as I consider this work. On a more practical level, I’ve been cautiously wondering whether I may have to split this work into two parts – a heavier theological debating part either with yourself or some other party and a lighter more informal cultural part with the GCN. I only offer this suggestion as a trial balloon and NOT as something that God has said that I must do, Any feedback on it would be welcome.

        Anyway, I must now get back to preparing a longer reply. So it’s goodbye from me and a bored yawn from our grumpy cat. Give our regards to your spouse. If you want a grumpy English cat please do let us know, : )

      • Hello Raymond!
        I am sorry once again for my delay in reply, and also sad to say that I can’t go on at length at this time, as my work prevents me. I do want you to know that I have been praying for your sons’ friend, and continue to pray for you and your family… I also want to say that I feel that separating the cultural aspect of the study from the doctrinal aspect sounds like a good idea. I have been praying about this and feel confident that The Lord would lead me on what you need to know. My only concern would be you using all of my massive time spent collecting this information into your book and if it would present a conflict of interest for me, considering that I also plan to write a book on this topic at some point when time permits, God willing. But perhaps this could actually be a benefit to my venture. We will have to discuss this further and I want to pray about this more… But aside from that, I do believe I would be the best one to speak to on this matter, as I don’t impulsively jump into conjectural theories, but rather pray for the leading of the Spirit as I conduct deep research as not to follow into someone else’s error.

        Quickly, it’s interesting how different the UK culture is from the US in its handling of homosexuality. I guess there are quite a few “gay entertainers,” (not always in the comedic realm) and some women especially do sometimes get a kick out of gay guys, even if they hold to conservative values… But overall, the conservative Christian community at large is just hateful or “fakeishly” polite while being ridiculously misinformed about sexual orientation. The latter is like, “Jesus loves you and I love you so much that I don’t want you to go to hell, so I will pray you become straight and turn from your sinful lifestyle choice.” So it seems that sometimes the only choice gays have is to join up with the ultra-liberal atheists (not that all liberals are atheists!!) But this is what tends to occur with the LGBT community as a whole, as it seems to be the only place for “support” which is not fruitful. The sides are so polar opposite, it’s hard to find the “hidden Manna” of the genuine gay Christian churches, as it seems to be viewed as a mass contradiction. This places the Christian gays at odds with both the Christian community and the gay community. It’s one of the hardest spots to “fit in.”

        I had a few follow-up thoughts about Sodom. Sodom’s “main” sin is already told to us in Scripture in Ezekiel 16:49, “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it…” So as a ‘reoccurring event’ as you say, we can see this behavior prevalent in many areas of the world today, including in our own nations. Notice that this makes no mention of the nature of their sexual sins (wether it be homosexuality or the custom of gang rape of foreigners), but many like to falsely equate “abominations” with homosexuality. Yet looking at the nature of the previous sins that are listed, inhospitality to strangers is supported, and it must be said that the most inhospitable act I can image is having to be raped by the townsmen in order to pay to stay the night in the city! Despite this, there is something in this chapter of Scripture that I have never heard publicly preached upon, at least not here in the U.S. Tell me if you have heard it or noticed this in your study of the Scriptures. We can see that it calls it “your sister Sodom.” So God is talking about another city and comparing it to Sodom. It states, “You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done.” (Ezekiel 16:51). So what city is being compared to Sodom and even has been persecuted as doing worse than Sodom? …….*Dramatic pause*…….. Jerusalem!!!! Yes, God’s chosen city and His chosen people have been condemned as being like Sodom and worse than Sodom! This should come as a big shock for those who constantly target Sodom as the worst….

        The beginning of this chapter speaks about how God chose and blessed Jerusalem with many things, but they took advantage of God’s blessings and turned to vile things. Along with their pride and misuse of their riches, here are a few key parts that show a comparison of Jerusalem to Sodom which reflects the practices of shrine prostitution in idolatry:
        3 “This is what the Sovereign Lord says to Jerusalem: ….17You took the fine jewelry I gave you, the jewelry made of my gold and silver, and you made for yourself male idols and engaged in prostitution with them. 20“ ‘And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough? 21You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols. (Compare this to Leviticus 18:21-30 and 20:1-5 which shows a contextual connection of homosexual shrine prostitution done before the idol Molech.) 24you built a mound for yourself and made a lofty shrine in every public square. 25At every street corner you built your lofty shrines and degraded your beauty, spreading your legs with increasing promiscuity to anyone who passed by… 47You not only followed their ways and copied their detestable practices, but in all your ways you soon became more depraved than they.” -Ezekiel 16:3,17,20,21,24,25,47.

        Despite Jerusalem being more depraved and sinful than even Sodom, here we can see the power of redemption and forgiveness of Yahweh:
        59“ ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant. 60Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both those who are older than you and those who are younger. I will give them to you as daughters, but not on the basis of my covenant with you. 62So I will establish my covenant with you, and you will know that I am the Lord. 63 that you may remember and be confounded, and never open your mouth again because of your shame, when I atone for you for all that you have done, declares The Lord.” -Ezekiel 16:59,60-63.

        With shrine prostitution in mind, I wanted to note that the practice isn’t just kept in the ancient times. Just as you say, things return, and this is a disturbing one. The current practice of shrine prostitution re-emerged since the 1970’s in a few scattered American cults (“Children of God,” “the church of the most high goddess, etc.) But perhaps it’s biggest practice can be seen in the “sex magick” rituals taught by Aleister Crowley which is followed by many celebrity’s in Ordo Templi Orientis (O.T.O). This brings occult practices into sex, hence perverting the act of sexual intercourse by subjecting it as idolatrous practice.

        I’m sorry if my writing is not as topically coherent as usual. I’ve had quite a long work day and my eyes are glazed over. I look forward for having more time on the weekend to reply further. I know I didn’t get to all the topics. I look forward to hearing from you, as always! 😉
        Your sister in Christ,
        Moanti
        P.S. I can understand how you would want to protect the identity of your spouse with a name that represents her. My spouse and I burst out in laughter because “Martyr” totally fits her personality too! And as you said before something to the fact of “if her spouse is like mine…” We also have a quite odd similarity in the personality of our cats, as our 3-legged one also seems to pop up during inopportune times. Haha!

  12. midrashcreed says:

    I do wonder whether under God’s grace some kind of friendship is being created here – not so much between you and I but between Martyr and I, yourself and Martyr II; in other words a foursome rather then a twosome (Martyr I hopes you don’t suffer from my habit of giving endless lectures to your Martyr. This habit partly explains why she’s quite happy to palm me off onto you.) Usually, I classify my internet contacts into ‘respected associates,’ ‘OK associates,’ ‘nuisance associates’ and ‘get rid quick associates’ but here something deeper appears to be taking place, although I don’t quite know what. if a real friendship is being created between us let it develop naturally at God’s own pace. Yet I cannot deny that talking to you is sometimes like talking to family so I do wonder whether I’ve dug up another long lost relative. Generally, there appears to be a deep sense of bonding which I’ve rarely experienced before. This may means the Lord cooking up something. However, the wisest thing to do is to take our time and see how things develop. Our cat however does not seem impressed about the prospect of seeing his cousins in California. He threw me a filthy look when I informed him of his possibility.

    The main focus of my book is on the biblical reductionism that’s blighted traditional Calvinist forms of Evangelical Protestantism. In particular I focus on their denial of spiritual gifts and God’s purposes for Israel. Also highlighted is the futility of praying for revival should you be simply wanting revival on your terms. The hermeneutics that’s often associated with the CMC only comes in as a secondary note to serve as a basis of comparison. It’s NOT the intention of my book to either attack or defend multi-sexuality which is a subject that’s way beyond its scope. What I have spotted however is a marked tendency to biblical reductionism in all forms of Protestant Christianity and this seems to account for many of the problems seen in the Church. My comments are at present somewhat tentative because as you perhaps well know, books can easily take on a life of their own. Besides I don’t think it will be ready for another two or three years. and things can change a lot over that period. My main priority for now is to bring my Family History to completion and leave it as a legacy for my children.

    Mind you I’m tempted to wonder whether our exchanges are turning into a book. The combination of a Californian lesbian and a grumpy Northern Englishman would cause raised eyebrows on both sides of the divide.

    A lack of time and the urgent the urgent demands of my clients prevent me from responding to your comments on Sodom. Yes I have studied the passages you’ve cited and it’s apparent that a whole bundle of sins were involved in it’s downfall. More then that I cannot say. Apologies for this inadequate response but I’m sure you’ll understand the reason for it.

    Although I have a word press account I appear to have problems uploading my replies to you. Either nothing happens when I press the ‘Post Comment’ facility or I just get an error message. Last time it took ten attempts to get my reply through to you. Have you an explanation for this problem? Any suggestions how to resolve it would be welcome! overall, I’m finding my use of this facility to be a rather frustrating.

    • Hello there Raymond,
      I don’t have much time. In fact, only 20 minutes, which is a lot less than I like to spend writing here. But after the nature of your response, I didn’t want to leave you hanging until the weekend when I shall hopefully have more time. I must also admit a kinship to you, even in your first comment to me. I felt this was leading to more responses that may turn into a friendship… When you had said you liked talking to me because there was no emotional attachment (I also assume to the topic at hand at the time), I mentioned to “Martyr II” that I wish to be considered a friend to you one day. 🙂 So this prospect is a joyful turn of events… But as you say, in Gods’ time and natural way… I also like how the responses are read between our spouses (and I guess even some more of your family members? Haha!) So I say hello to any one who may be reading. 🙂 This is a foursome with an extended audience I suppose.

      I also wanted to say that I glanced over your collection of books that you have written and one of them in particular, I feel I have come across recently before! The 52 Attributes of God is a title that seems familiar to me, although I know I have yet to read it. My Martyr is at work (and being a martyr to all in her workspace as usual), and so I have yet to share this with her. She is an avid fan of George Orwell and uses the word “dystopian” more than anyone I know, so I am sure she will find great interest in “The Exit Machine.” I am eager to tell her about it.

      So the topic of your upcoming book about biblical reductionism in traditional Calvinist forms of Evangelical Protestantism doesn’t sound like it would present any conflict of interest for my own book, so I am happy to assist you in any way I can in exploring the gay Christian doctrine. Due to your topic, I feel the traditional view should be especially noted as detrimental, as they reduce these scattered passages into so much more than they should. My approach seeks not only look at the verses in question at its microscopic level, but zoom out to all of Scripture to test it against the main message of the Bible and the character of God and common traits of sin.

      So I am now at the 20 minute deadline, sadly, but would like to write more to you this weekend. I would also say you are like talking to family, but I actually feel more comfortable talking to you openly than I do my own biological family. Is that sad? Perhaps it can be explained by the unwelcome reception I have received due to my sexual orientation and that all of my extended family are over 2,000 miles away and hold to strict conservative Southern Baptist views. My father is the true closest family that I have and the only one in my entire line of [known] genealogy that seems to be at least halfway open to being accepting of my love life. My mother and I are “close” on a different and lesser level, but any mention of sexual orientation and my marriage are off topic, so you can see how this can become mundane and shallow. So I must run for now….
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

  13. midrashcreed says:

    Time only for a brief response to your post as I’ve just finished a three hour meeting with some clients. Apologies if my reply sounds a little abrupt but I am rather tired. I’ve also been preparing the longer reply I mentioned to you earlier. It should be ready for next week. I was sorry to hear about your family troubles but families can be odd. We’ve had our ups and downs over the last few months but for Marty’s sake I will not say any more.

    To be honest I was far more interested in your bible hermeneutics then I was in your lesbianism – although I like the sound of your cats! At a rather selfish, personal level I found your particular orientation to be of advantage in the sense that you were neither someone married a to ‘red neck’ husband carrying a twelve bore shotgun nor a lonely ‘singleton’ desperately looking for ‘Mr Right.’ (Poor fool if she ever thought it was me, Martyr would have to send her a long list of all my many bad habits.) I don’t think either Martyr or I would have displayed a similar openness to a hetero-sexual married or single woman. Nor would i have with a fellow man because of traditional male rivalry. In an odd sort of way your lesbianism has facilitated our relationship. It helps make us feel safer.

    One thing both my wife and I have found it very difficult to wrap our heads around is the way we’ve encountered a happily married lesbian who shows every indication of being ‘born again.’ This possibility has never figured on our radar before. It was easy to dismiss so called ‘Christian’ multi-sexuals when they were either liberals or neo-pagan pantheists but you and your spouse are in a different category altogether. We have both been in some degree of shock at this development. However, maybe you two are also in a state of shock at having such a positive encounter with a rigorously Conservative Christian, who’s produced the most comprehensive Creed in Church History (See Section 13 of ‘The Leeds Liturgy’) I not only don’t hate multi-sexuals; but can, if the personal chemistry is right, actually enjoy their company. Once again I’m coming to the conclusion that God’s grace is not only bigger then we imagine but it’s also far bigger than we CAN imagine. There is now a deep longing to share my many proven gifts with the CMC but how this will come about the Lord only knows. The only thing I do know is that His Spirit appears to be moving at a very fast rate. Under his guidance, there appears to be a joining of hands over the chasm.

    Anyway, bye for now!

    P.S. I trust that Martyr II doesn’t carry a twelve bore shot gun does she? She’s not the chicken plucking, truck driving lesbian I annoyed on another forum a few years back. Now she would have outdone Beryl Reid in ‘The Killing of Sister George.’

    • Ahhh Raymond!
      What a day! I wanted so much to have adequate time to write you, but then was inconvenienced by my car breaking down. So alas, I only have a short time to write. But the good news is that I have a few more weeks of work and am off for most of the summer (and no, I am not a teacher or professor, although many in my family have this profession… I am also not a student, as I have already completed my Masters degree previously… I only conceal my profession due to the public nature of this forum…) So I will most certainly have more time in the coming weeks, God willing… So as for tonight, I must only keep this short. I am still waiting on your larger reply about Sodom. I am tempted to give my best effort at a minimal summary of the key verses in the alternate translation concerning the Bible and homosexuality. This would take effort to do in a small summary (especially for me since I love to go in depth) and it would be very inadequate to the full picture. But it may provide you with more questions that I could answer to you later on where I could fill in the gaps… So here it goes:

      The word “homosexual” was first printed in a book in 1869, and then placed in the Bible in 1946. Consequently, we know that the Bible cannot mean now what it did not mean then. I will get to the word later, as I’d like to take this chronologically. I already spoke to you about Sodom, so I will skip just that portion of the text, as you know that the translation (supported by Judges 19) is a situation of attempted gang-rape of angels rather than “friendly gay sex.” Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 can be broken down in multiple ways. First is to view it under the Old Covenant purity laws as the Jews were to not commit the customs performed in the pagan lands. So some believe that this condition was placed solely to be “set aside” from these foreigners. Aside from this, looking deeper at Leviticus 18, you can see that the chapter is broken up into topical sections. So first we have a greeting in verses 1-5, then specific acts to being with people near of kin from verses 6-20, then we have acts that are specific to the Idol worship of Molech in verses 21-24. The last verses 25-30 describes the inhabitants of the Land of Canaan which committed these customs before the Israelites came into the land. So looking at Leviticus 18:22, the verse before it (18:21) states “You shall not offer your seed (zera) as sacrifice to Molech.” It goes from prohibiting sexual relations near of kin, to suddenly talking about an act performed in idol worship? Following 18:22 is a prohibition about bestiality in 18:23,24. Both homosexual (and heterosexual) non-procreative acts and non procreative acts of bestiality were performed in idol worship, so this shows contextual relation to “man lying with man” with shrine prostitution. The word “zera” is translated seed or children, but when one looks at its contextual use in Scripture, it can mean “semen.” So with this, “you shall not offer your semen as sacrifice to Molech…and engage in male/male sex, and bestiality… Seeing zera as semen makes more contextual sense in the chapter as a whole, as everything is presented as a sexual prohibition, and sacrificing children is randomly off topic. Although this practice is believed to have taken place, so was the act of giving semen as a sacrifice which could be the context here due to its complimentary sexual application. The third and most fascinating way to look at this is to see the word meaning of “to lie with” in regards to a male lying with a man. “Shakab (שכב)” (Strong #901) is usually used in Scripture to mean “to sleep” or “to die,” but in EVERY use in its sexual context, it is connected to rape or sex masked by some form of deceptive coercion. Based on this context, we could conclude that Levitucus 18:22 and 20:13 either represents the ONLY use of consensual coupling sex, or it is speaking against rape and/or the coerced sex performed in shrine prostitution, as worshipers of these idol religions were coerced to perform sex rituals as sacrifice with the shrine prostitute intercessors. The sentence also doesn’t originally include the comparative language “as with” or “like as” a female and is inserted by the translators. The original sentence reads: “Against a male shall not shakab bed female/wife.” The word always translated “as one lies” is just mishkab, which is the word for “bed.” So you can see that the translators took quite a bit of liberty with this verse. Extra support is given to the connection to shrine prostitution in that the book of Deuteronomy repeated every prohibition that prescribed the death penalty in Leviticus. Because Leviticus 20:13 says that male-shakab is worthy of death, it would be assumed to be repeated again in Deuteronomy with the other repeated death penalty verses, as the book of Deuteronomy was essentially a summary of what God told Moses to relay before his death. Well, instead of a “blank space,” we have this verse in its place: “No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute (qadesh, קָדֵשׁ).” Could this be referring to the same thing, just in clearer terms?

      Moving on now to Romans, we can see Romans 1 is littered with idolatry. Theses Romans knew God, but exchanged worship of Him for worship of idols. It is not until verse 26 that we see the famous words used to condemn not only gays, but lesbians. But looking at the context, we see that they exchanged God for idols. Likewise, the women “exchanged natural for unnatural.” This does NOT say “women with women,” but rather an exchange of natural for unnatural. Natural would be a marital relationship. Unnatural would be the perversion of sex in idol worship (as contextually supported.) The difference is that the women in idol worship practice would not have “traditional intercourse,” as the seed sacrifice was to be for the idols, not to “make a baby.” Therefore, the female shrine prostitutes accepted sex anally. LIKEWISE the men did the same thing. So this is not prohibiting lesbians as well as gays, nor is it really prohibiting anything (if you look at wording.) It is talking about what has been occurring in Rome historically, which was polite way of describing anal sexual relations during their idol worship ceremonies. There is something I must do more research on and get back to you. I have recently discovered that many of the words in Romans 1:26-27 are single words only used in these two verses, and not found anywhere else in Scripture. This includes the Greek words for “passions,” “dishonor,” “women,” exchanged,” “natural,” “use,” “males,” “natural,” “use/function,” “woman,” “burned,” “desire,” ” males,” “males,” “committing,” “penalty,” “receiving.” So with this said it is fascinating to see that most of the words in Romans 1:26,27 aren’t used anywhere else in Scripture… So it must be studied to see where these words were pulled from and why they represent such different words, as even the Greek words used for “male” and “female” are exclusive to this verse. Strange. Don’t you think? Also interesting is that there are some other words that have only a few uses. The word “nature” is used only 5 times in Scripture and always refers to Gentiles being grafted into the Olive Tree contrary to “nature.” Then the word “shame” is used twice, once in Romans and another in Revelation 16:15 referring to being unprepared on the day of judgment. Click on the Greek words mentioned to see this demonstrated: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/1-26.htm and http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/1-27.htm

      Next is to research the word commonly translated as “homosexuals” which is “arsenokoites” and “malakos.” Arsenokoites was coined by Paul and is a compound word for man (arsen) and beds (koites.) Notice this is a singular man in plural beds. Some say this must mean homosexuality because the words arsen and koitai appear in close proximity in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 when we look at the Greek Old Testament. But there are other verses that have the same proximal usage of these words, and if context was taken from them, we would believe that non-virginal women should be executed. Despite this, arsenokoites has been long translated before as “male prostitute” which certainly supports the context of these verses throughout in the alternate translation. One would assume that if it were talking only about homosexuals, than it would be arsenosokoitai, which would mean “males (plural), bed (singular.)” but it is only a singular male mentioned with no proof of connection to exclusive homosexual acts. Malakos on the other hand is only found 2 other times in Scripture and simply means “soft.” In the Aramaic equivalent to malakos contextually relates to “corrupt children.” The King James Version translated malakos to “effeminate,” but we know that not all gay males are effeminate, nor lesbians. But the one who is always “effeminate” or “soft” or “corrupt children” are the child prostitutes who were kept as sex slaves and often sometimes trained to be shrine prostitutes. So this could be referring to the ones who kept children for sex, i.e. child molesters. Both of these Greek words have been translated throughout time in so many different ways. So we shouldn’t unfairly damn an entire group of people to hell on uncertain translation.

      There are of course many other things that can support that homosexuals are able to be given Salvation. Just alone, the grace of Yahweh given through the blood of Yeshua’s sacrifice is absolutely sufficient for any true believer. To say otherwise would be to insult the sacrifice of Yeshua. The power in His blood is so incredibly massive. On a side note, I had a vision the other day. I am not claiming this as fact, as I do not know for sure why I saw this. But in prayer, I saw a vision of Yeshua’s blood at its microscopic level. Every cell in His blood represented a soul in need of redemption. So it came to mind to look up the number of blood cells in the human body in order to perhaps estimate the amount of souls that will exist before His second coming. Unfortunately, this number is too difficult to count due to the different sizes of blood cells in each body, but they offer a massive number. As I said, I do not know if this is some secret revealed from Heaven or if this was just a symbolic vision. Either way, the idea is fascinating and brought me great joy! I thought I would share it with you. 🙂

      Sadly I must go for now. As I said before, the above summary is highly inadequate, but gives an overview of the topics at hand so you can ask more questions. What would be better is to read my main website as well as all of the external links to my other further writings on this topic. This can be found at http://www.gaychristians.2freedom.com In closing on a random note, thankfully my spouse does not carry a 12-gage shotgun (or any other weapons for the matter), nor has she ever plucked a chicken (this would horrify her) or drive a truck. Hahaha! She is of the feminine type as I am, so here in America we would be considered “lipstick lesbians.” Haha. The only problem with this can become the frequent occurrence of men not realizing our sexual orientation, and so much “barking up the wrong tree” has occurred. This leads to confusion and hearing the sentence “but you don’t look like a lesbian” over and over… stereotypes are so funny sometimes. 🙂 Anyway, I must go for now, but am eagerly awaiting your reply. I hope you and Martyr are well and we continue to pray for you!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti
      P.S. I do happen to also give endless lectures to Martyr II, especially about Biblical topics, so I suppose we have quite a few things in common! Thankfully though, she usually enjoys such “lectures.” Perhaps I should have been a professor like many in my family! 😉

  14. midrashcreed says:

    Phew! I’m glad your spouse wasn’t the chicken plucking lesbian I encountered some years back. How could you have lived with such a person? She does however appear to have a lot to put up with. Maybe she should form a mutual commiseration society with my Martyr! She thinks it is ‘uncanny’ just how many things we have in common. Certainly some lesbians appear to live up to their stereotypes; there was one ten years ago whose look could shatter a concrete block from a hundred yards! But onto more pleasant subjects, a couple of days ago I crashed out at my ninety year old Mother’s to have a much needed break. In conversation she divulged that the whole ‘Gay’ thing “was swept under the carpet.” When working as a teenager for the Civil service during the London Blitz of 1940 there was one older woman in her thirties who she was advised never to be alone with. Office gossip was rife amidst all that were then bombs falling. During the 1950s the only figure she knew associated with homosexuality was Liberace whom she recalled as “being a very talented piano player, but everyone knew what he was.” During the late 1970s and 1980s she worked for a couple of ‘male’ homosexual bosses whom she described as being ‘very nice.’ In her day “they were figures of fun. No one really hated them. They weren’t persecuted like the Negro’s were in America.” Of homosexuality in the church she knew nothing. Although involved in the local Anglican Church Young Wives she was “too busy raising children to notice.” My mother closed her trip down memory lane by remarking. “The generation before me were very intolerant. I was more tolerant then most people in England because I’d lived abroad as a girl! I learnt to take people as they come.” Indeed by the standards of her generation she was and still is highly tolerant; her female Pakistani and male Polish home carers lover her to bits. Interestingly, the Civil Rights struggle appears to have left an imprint in her memory. So will you and your spouse send her a big ‘hi’ she would appreciate it and cause it to be a talking point for the next week or two. She’ll probably believe that the whole ‘Gay’ scene in California loves her! (My mother has always had a very positive image of herself. A lack of self-esteem has never been a problem.) Yet it cannot be denied that you’ve both benefited from the example she gave me. So send her a VERY BIG ‘hi!’

    One of the greatest challenges of what I call ‘The Great Turnaround’ is coming to terms with emotions and longings I wasn’t feeling just over a month ago. These have stirred in me my first poem on the topic. First drafted on Thursday, 22nd may and entitled ‘Whence’ it reads: –

    From whence comes this love
    This desire
    This longing
    This craving
    To reach out to a lost and despised people?

    From whence comes this love
    That bestows a mysterious strength
    While filling my heart with a new tenderness
    For those whose identity is ‘confusion?’

    From whence comes this love
    That stirs within me
    Like a newly conceived infant
    Kicking in a mother’s womb?

    From whence comes this love
    This powerful, gentle, awesome love
    To a people much despised
    The answer ‘I do not know’
    But I do know that Jesus is the word made flesh
    And that he has atoned for ALL of my many sins

    Sometimes poetry can express things that mere prose cannot. However, perhaps my greatest desire in relation to the CMC is to provide a faithful witness to Christ’s atonement. If interested parties get this right then other things can start to come right as well. However, if we get it wrong on this matter through indulgence in either a Polly Anna Theology or some other error nothing at all will come right. The question of ‘Atonement’ is central to the welfare of the CMC and its members. In actual fact, it’s the most important issue of all. How the CMC responds to the many benefits offered through Christ’s death will determine whether it will exercise a benign or malign influence on future Church affairs. As a grumpy, late fifties ‘Jonny Come Lately’ whose come crashing into the Multi-sexual Christian scene like a downed airliner I’m perhaps the worst person for this kind of work. Indeed, sometimes I feel like a person who has turned up at the wrong party, but in His inscrutable sovereignty the Lord has dragged me by the scruff of my neck onto this scene so I can only trust that His grace will make up for what I lack. At present I sense the Holy Spirit is brooding over much of the CMC because he wants to perform a wonderfully creative work that has the potential to bind-up many broken hearts, (Genesis 1:2 & Isaiah 61:1-2). This may seem a strange notion to many Fundamentalist Christians who are too blinkered to realize that God’s grace is grace precisely because it is directed to those who don’t deserve it. Full credit must be given to you Moan-ti for providing me with a safe venue to work through these profound issues. Your role reminds me of that of Ananias in Acts 9:10-19.

    These are only preliminary musings for the ‘big’ reply you appear to be waiting so eagerly for. It is now nearly complete and I hope to have it ready for you at the end of this week. I’ve had to divide it into subheadings in order to make it more readable. I will however enclosed an advanced intallment for you and Martyr II to peruse through.

    A Radical Experiment

    What has become very clear is you and your friends in the CMC are engaged in one of the most radical cultural and religious experiments of all time. Whether you know it or not you’re attempting a Hegelian synthesis between Christianity and multi-sexual lifestyles. The breath taking boldness of this experiment cannot be overstated and it’s hardly surprising that the traditionalists have had the pants scared of them. Their whole identity and way of thinking has been challenged. Whether this synthesis will be accomplished or turn out to be the equivalent of throwing a lighted match into a gunpowder store only time will tell. But the fact remains that the attempt to graft monogamous multi-sexual lifestyles onto bible-based forms of Christianity remains an experiment without precedent. Having got now beyond the point of fear I feel a great sense of privilege at being given a ringside seat to watch this experiment in progress. Intellectually, it’s an extremely fascinating phenomenon to observe. But prayerfully consider the implications of what you’re doing. Sometimes revolutions have to be made (if they weren’t you’d have our queen as your head of state) but they can very easily go wrong. You need to be aware of this.

    In your own genial ways both Justin Lee and you are as revolutionary as Lenin (1870-1924) and ‘Red’ Rosa Luxemburg (1871-1919) the leader of the Marxist Spartacist party of Germany. This is one thing that the traditionalists do see clearly and in fairness to them homosexuality is at present the one of the great pressure points on their Churches. Both in Britain and America they feel with some degree of justification that the whole of society is turning against them. Thanks to divine grace I’m now beyond the point of panic and now seek to be a faithful witness to the Gospel amidst what I call the Multi-Sexual revolution. As a pessimistic European who’s visited Auschwitz Death Camp with his oldest and youngest sons, I only hope that it turns out better than some of the revolutions we’ve had in Europe. (Communism in particular has left a deep scar on the Polish people.) My own role appears to have affinities to that of the rather grumpy writer Maxim Gorky (1868-1936) who during the early Bolshevik period was close to the revolutionaries but not quite of their camp. He later had the misfortune to be poisoned on Stalin’s orders. (Probably ‘good fortune’ given what Stalin had done to some of his other critics.)

    One effect of the multi-sexual revolution will be to either validate or test to destruction the Social Constructionist view of sexuality. Very simply this view this attributes most of the ills suffered by the multi-sexual Community on society and on institutions like the Church or the Psychiatric Profession. However, once all remaining social stigma relating to this condition has been removed multi-sexuals won’t be able to attribute any continuing misery to society. It will have proven at least in part to be an internally driven rather than externally afflicted misery. (If this scenario plays out I can easily imagine the religious conservative gleefully saying ‘we told you so.’) One reason why I believe God has removed the lid of same sex marriage is to reveal the true nature of multi-sexuality. Can any of it be reconciled with Scripture? Events will either confirm or nullify the arguments we present on this thread. At times I wonder whether we’re conducting a dialogue over a widening chasm but as God appears to be in it, let it continue.

    • Hello Raymond!
      This will most certainly be my shortest reply, as it’s already past 2AM and I must sleep and work tomorrow (technically today!) I just wanted to let you know that Martyr II and I highly enjoyed your message and indeed eagerly await your longer reply (It even has subheadings? How exciting!) But I must not leave before saying that we also were filled with joy and intrigue to hear of the stories shared by your mother, and most certainly want to tell her a HUGE friendly hello! It would be an honor to meet such an amazing woman, and of course you and your wife and your cat and all others that you have mentioned (perhaps minus the scary lesbian who’s looks could shatter a brick wall)! So hello to all and know that we are praying for you and thinking of you often and fondly. 🙂 With that we must say goodnight… Until we meet with words again…
      Your sisters in Christ,
      Moanti and Martyr II 😉
      P.S. We were both very touched by your poem and recited it several times. 🙂

  15. midrashcreed says:

    Just spoken to my mother whose having to cope with a broken water pipe in her kitchen.At present.Martyr is there trying to do a mini-Moses by parting the waters. A plumber has been called for tomorrow. Hence your message brought her extra cheer when i read it aloud to her across the phone. She said amidst some chuckling, “I’m too old to change now.” Also hinted about wanting a free holiday in California all expenses paid by yourselves of course! Was especially glad to find her memories were of interest. My mother also liked the sound of your cats as she used to keep them herself when younger. Fond regards are sent by her. (She’s dreaming of Californian sunshine methinks.)

    Big reply is almost prepared.

  16. midrashcreed says:

    Here at last is the big reply I promised. To facilitate your reading I’ve divided it by sub-headings. You’re very welcome to several days before responding as I know there’s much here for you to digest. To save time, I will only focus some of the points you raised in earlier correspondence. That way we can in subsequent posts focus on issues more directly related to Bible hermeneutics. I will not however mention the ‘P’ issue of child sex abuse. This is because it’s such a toxic topic that it should only covered when on a prayer retreat if at all. I may well choose not to respond some of the comments you made about it. For obvious reasons, it’s an issue I prefer to steer well clear of unless I receive exceptionally clear guidance from the Holy Spirit. Now to one point you raised which was the often horrendous rejection multi-sexuals face from the Church.
    Rejection
    On that one both Martyr and I feel like saying ‘tell us all about it.’ ‘Rejection’ is one area where we can identify strongly with the experiences of CMC for in our time we have among many other things endured from the late 1978 until early 2012. For legal reasons I’ve changed names and a few incidental details: –
    1) Mockery from one of the founders of the CMC in this country (he happened to be my lecturer in Higher Education)
    2) Character assassination and lies for a denominational headquarters I worked for
    3) Curses from a false prophetess
    4) Allegations of stealing books from a Christian bookshop I worked for (It went bankrupt a few years ago)
    5) Tantrums and misleading promises from viperfish vicars (almost too many to count, but includes one who conducted one of the first same sex blessings in our area)
    6) A major clash with a cassock wearing false prophet of California who I nicknamed ‘Venom Deeplash’ (he wasn’t exactly pleased by this designation)
    7) Two threats of legal action and four pulpit denunciations from church leaders for daring to criticise the delusion of the Toronto Deception (one had been from my former youth minister who’d taken me from the waters of baptism)
    8) Hate mail from the pastor who’d married us and who had also baptised me
    9) A bogus word of knowledge mocking the extensive studies of the atonement during the mid-1990s (it came from a Church leader who was steeped in the Toronto Deception, I’d never seen him before)
    10) Slanderous allegation of plagiarism from the talented bigot I’d mentioned in earlier posts
    11) The requesting of organizational reports from Church leaders who promise to follow my recommendations only to do the opposite
    12) Being snarled at by a Church elder at a church meeting in January 2012
    13) Frequent low level rudeness, stupidity and political back stabbing
    14) Attempts to cause divisions in our marriage (these were handled with the appropriate degree of ruthlessness)
    15) Finally receiving a sermon in April 2012 from a retired minister who didn’t know my situation saying ‘what are you doing here?’ which was the Lord very much giving my wife and I the order of the boot from all church connections as we’d by then eliminated all alternatives – I sent in our to the church concerned resignation on the 100th anniversary of the Titanic Sinking which seemed appropriate
    Perhaps the worst moment came in late 1996 when the spiritual corruption of a Pentecostal Church contributed to a domestic tragedy and a breach in a family relationship that took fifteen years to even partially repair. When something like that happens it’s as if a sword has sliced through your heart. When recently during my researches I heard about a transgender Pentecostal Evangelist I had more problems with them being Pentecostal then transgender which is perhaps a first!
    There were admittedly some high points amidst this dismal chain of events. There were the three years co-leading a young men’s group (1986-9) who were known as the ‘outcast group,’ there was the twenty years (1985-2005) being a volunteer hospital visitor for a very caring chaplaincy team and there was the eight years (1990-1998) spent in itinerant preaching and teaching with a very honourable gentleman whom I’m still friends with. More recently, from October 2007 onwards there was the breakthrough into performance poetry on the local literary bohemian scene. It was there I had what turned out to be a fairly positive encounter with a M to F Persian transsexual who had fled Iran in fear of their life. Martyr and I also saw one or two highly talented ‘Gay’ performers. One male performer I seemed to ‘click’ with. This ‘bohemian odyssey, has been an excellent preparation for the encounter yourself and with a senior representative from GCN. We feel easier dealing with multi-sexuals in a neutral cultural context.
    There was also the great stimulus of having to respond to high level controversies like the Toronto Deception (1994-7) which provided major insight into the process of apostasy and the Hegelian ‘dance’ of Doctor Rowan Williams (2004-2008) which gave scope to challenge at least one Bishop and a senior deacon before getting me into poetry (I now have poems published in three magazines and have performed on the local poetry circuit.) All I will say about these two controversies is that they stretched me to the absolute limit. It was during the second of these that I began encountering ‘Christian’ multi-sexuals. Unfortunately, most of them happened to be ‘toxic’ liberals whom I had nothing in common with at any level. Yet there were one or two flashes of empathy I actually got through to a secular ‘Gay’ troll who I’ll give the name ‘Mucky Mick’ to. Virtually all the snooty Anglicans on the forum despised him but he came to grudging appreciation of my honesty. More recently, the same pattern occurred with the self-styled ‘Father Twitus’ who used to annoy rather stuffy traditionalists on another forum. I actually managed to get him to think which was something as he was a complete feather brain. It was during this period that I encountered the chicken plucking, truck driving lesbian from boom sticks America. No one could figure on what she was about as she was very inarticulate. Then there was the M to F transsexuals. One an American Episcopalian priest who looked a mess appeared on a conservative Anglican forum insistently asked for affirmation of a condition I then knew very little about. (God knows why he was there but he was.) When I politely suggested that his real problem lay between his ears rather than his legs and that he should seek the Lord as to what to do about this he threw a mega-temper tantrum and was then joined by two other M to F transsexuals who had been lurking in the background. Try to guess what it was like being hand bagged by three Hilary Clintons! That was the kind of response I got! Most of the replies they received from stuffy conservatives were a lot harsher than my own. I could at least the funny side of things. (Alas the transsexuals did not. They didn’t ‘dig’ English humour.)
    However whilst on a private retreat in January 2012, it became clear that I’d come to the end of the road as far as the Churches in this country were concerned. I’d given all I’d could and there seemed very little to show for it. Having hit a wall of reinforced concrete, I had no choice but to abandon the Church side of things. My approach was simple it would either came back marked ‘blest and redeemed or it wouldn’t come back at all.’ However, I could not have guessed in my wildest dreams that it was the multi-sexual side of church life that would be the one to comeback. It didn’t even figure in my radar. Partly this was due to the fact that there was the ‘little’ matter of financial survival to contend with. This was because the economic recession and a sudden shift in customer demand ensured that by early March of that year I was spiralling towards bankruptcy. At one point I only had about £72.00 in the bank. For ten months I was locked in a grinding battle for survival and only four miraculous provisions of finance kept me afloat. Left with no choice, I took the decision to place all church matters to one side in order to focus upon economic survival which came courtesy of some Arab Clients towards the end of that year. We saw out the old year at my mothers and as the chimes of Big Ben marked its end I exclaimed ‘thank God I’ve survived.’ In 2013 the recovery was so quick that Martyr and I could afford to spend six night time in Rome. Now my business has never been more prosperous. I regard this turnaround as one of the greatest miracles in my Christian life. It was the saving of my faith.
    Indeed, I could give the sort of testimony that they’d love to hear in Faith and Prosperity Churches. If God got me out of a mess like that, I don’t see why he cannot change sexual orientation should He wish to do. Indeed to do so would be easy when compared to getting me out of the financial hole I was in. Our God is a God who can do miracles should he wish to do so. To discount that possibility smacks of unbelief; however, we have to take great care to discern whether God actually want to do a miracle. There were areas like my relationship with the UK Churches which were left unhealed as a ‘thorn in the flesh.’ Between me and them there has been an irrevocable relational breakdown and I (along with Martyr) have had to learn to live with it. Neither of us wanted things to turn out the way they did. It was as if almost four decades of endeavour had gone up in a puff of smoke. When I reflect on all the things I could have given them I feel sick of heart. But that’s now water under the bridge; it’s time for new beginnings.
    So when it comes to rejection by the Church I think our experiences has horrors that can match many of those in the multi-sexual community. At present Martyr and I confine myself to attending the sporadic meetings of a local House fellowship. I also attend, when I can, the sermons of a local Baptist Minister who has a good bible-teaching ministry. Although he has the hang dog look of a minister who has much to put up with from his elders he always greets me warmly and he actually took a liking to my novella ‘The Exit Machine.’ However, the fact remains that such a Berlin wall of mistrust has built up between us and the Churches that we tend to keep our distance. To me Churches spell one word ‘trouble’ and their ministers I regard as carriers of the bubonic plague unless proven otherwise. There’s also the fact that with my ninety year old mother to look out for and a growing business to attend to neither Martyr and I can afford any more church ‘argy bargy.’ It would now represent an unacceptable drain on our energies. Martyr now prefers the ‘Church of the great outdoors’ by going on long country walks. (She sometimes drags me along on them).
    We are still puzzled as to why we never ever really fitted in; apart from the liberals, there were no serious doctrinal or theological issues that were in contention. It’s just that over a period of roughly thirty five years things just kept going sour. We were like grafted on tissue that kept getting rejected. In the end, we had no option but to leave it to one side. It was however, like going through a bitter divorce in which the other party had committed multiple-adultery with both sexes. Now after two years, are we even cautiously considering re-engaging in a Christian work. Maybe God allowed all this rejection to prepare us for a work in the CMC. Who knows? But Martyr and I do appear to be a pair of outcasts being sent to outcasts. Only a mixture of grace, a dark sense of humour and a strong sense of purpose plus a capacity to give back what I got brought me through this prolonged storm of rejection. But even so it has left a very bad taste. Out policy now is not to get involved in Church matters unless there’s been a prolonged and prayerful process of discernment. We’ve learned the hard way to be cautious.
    The 7R’s of Multi-Sexuality
    Having now examined every side of the debate concerning homosexuality I believe that both the ‘for’ and ‘against’ factions have, under the heat of controversy, become guilty of rigid ways of thinking hence homosexuality is either all a ‘lifestyle choice’ or all a ‘predetermined orientation’; it’s either something that can be cured by proper therapy or it’s something that can never be altered; it’s either a route to personal fulfilment and happiness or it’s a route to endless personal frustration and misery; it’s either something that God affirms and accepts or it’s something that God always condemns and judges. Arising from such rigid and dangerously simplistic thinking are the rather unpleasant stereotypes that both sides have of each other – one is either an ‘ignorant, fundamentalist, homophobic bigot’ or a ‘perverted, twisted, filthy Sodomite.’ The list of insults appears endless. Reason itself has been thrown out of the window. When viewing the highly polarised American scene I sometimes feel like saying ‘calm down my dears, let’s resolve our differences over a nice cup of tea.’ My position appears to be that of a British diplomat trying to bring peace during the American Civil War and provoking canon shot from both sides.
    One thing which did become very apparent to me during the encounter with last Augusts’ Manchester Gay Pride March is how varied the condition of homosexuality actually is. It would therefore be more accurate to define it as consisting of a distinct set of ‘homosexualities’ each with their own causes, degree of strength and trajectory. This would preclude the kind of simplistic thinking which says ‘it’s all of X and none of Y.’ The same point would also apply to Transgenderism which also represents a spectrum of conditions that require very different responses. Such complexity would explain why I prefer to use the broad term of ‘multi-sexuality’ to cover these various orientations. From my own observation and study I would break multi-sexuals into the following categories that consist of 7Rs: –
    R1: The Recreational who indulge (often temporarily) a particular orientation for experimental and recreational purposes
    R2: The Repressed who deny they have a particular orientation
    R3: The Renouncers who renounce and repudiate a particular orientation
    R4: The Restrainers who admit to having but choosing to restrain a particular orientation, often through celibacy
    R5: The Relaters who seek to find a safe outlet for their orientation in a monogamous relationship
    R6: The Rampant who only want to enjoy a large number of casual, promiscuous relationships
    R7: The Reprobate who impose their sexual preferences on other (often vulnerable) people without their consent
    Clearly, R1-2 and 6-7 cannot be reconciled with any healthy form Christianity while R3-4 can. The big area of debate surrounds R5 with traditionalists fearing that it’s a pathway leading straight to R6-7. At present, much of the thinking on this matter is a mess. Much tidying up needs to happen before any real progress can be made with this issue.
    As you will have gathered from previous comments I’m rather sceptical of the claim that one’s sexual orientation can never be changed. My own position is that a deep routed orientation can NEVER alter without any direct intervention from God, (Zechariah 4:6). By and large psychiatrists are correct when they admit their techniques don’t work but if, in his inscrutable wisdom God wishes to switch a particular orientation why not? There’s a risk of underestimating His capacity to work miracles in order to show His Sovereign grace. On a lighter note you may appreciate the following joke: –
    “I say, I say I say, when does a beautiful heterosexual lady turn into a lesbian?”
    “When does she does she turn into a lesbian?”
    “When she’s a desperate Hollywood Actress wanting to revive a fading career by gaining quick publicity!”
    “Ba-boom!”
    Having said that, it’s NOT my business to try and change people’s sexual orientation. Maybe if I was perfect and had never entertained a lustful thought in my life I would be entitled to make such an attempt, but as this is not the case I neither the authority, capacity or stupidity to engage in such a futile endeavour. A man whose mother and sister loudly wonder in his presence why his wife has stuck by him for 35 years is hardly in a position to tell Gays to sort out their private lives. As we say in my part of the world ‘don’t throw stones in glass houses.’ If a Gay couple like yourself were unwise enough to ask my opinion on their relationship (and I’m sure you’re not) my words would be those of Paul in Philippians 2:12b “work out your salvation in fear and trembling.” My policy is to neither to affirm or condemn such relationships, especially if I don’t know the couple concerned. It may surprise you, but the sexual side of things isn’t my central reference point in this area. Rather it’s the atonement of Christ and the need to share its benefits when the opportunity comes about naturally. Also in British culture it’s still considered ’rude’ to pass comments about people’s intimate relationships. Among my generation it still can be a case of ‘no sex please, we’re British!’
    For what it’s worth, my own view is that if Jesus isn’t going to remove a particular multi-sexual orientation then the best thing that Christians with that condition can do is place it into in his hands and ask him to redeem it. They would also do well to apply James 1:5 and ask for His wisdom as to how they should manage it. I’ve done that with various areas of my life and found that the results at times can be truly amazing. The problem with many Christian multi-sexuals is that goaded by blinkered traditionalists, they take the stance which says ‘it’s my sexuality,’ when it should be ‘it’s my sexuality, that’s been given over to Christ to do whatever he wants with it.’ (The answer will vary on a case-by-case basis.) Part of being a true believer is having the grace to hand every area of our lives to Christ and that includes our sexuality, (Romans 12:1-2).
    There’s also the inconvenient fact that multi-sexual has continued to thrive despite everything inquisitions, totalitarian dictatorships, Nazi death camps and the misdirected efforts of the psychiatric profession could throw at it. Indeed, during my visit to Auschwitz I may have walked over the ashes of some of the 15,000 homosexuals know to have been murdered in Nazi death camps. (The actual figure may have been much higher.) As his ghastly memoirs reveal, the commandant of that death factory Rudolf Hoess took a particularly dim view of that community. They took second place after the Jews in his list of soon to be exterminated pariahs. Further evidence of the intractability of this condition was provided by a recent Channel Four ‘Underreported World’ Documentary exploring the awful plight of multi-sexuals who were forced to live in an underground drainage pipe in Kingston, Jamaica. (Available at http://www.channel4.com/programmes/unreported-world/4od ) Silly traditional Christians ranting against it won’t make the issue go away. Like it or not multi-sexuals are here to stay and in the Lord bible-believing Christians must find a way to respond with grace to their presence.
    Three Theological Options
    In the area of area of Bible Hermeneutics the two enemies of the CMC are: –
    1. On your right the condemning ‘God hates all faggots’ Pharisees as exemplified by the late Fred Phelps
    2. On your left the condoning ‘God just love you are’ Sadducees as exemplified by Archbishop Jefferts Schori
    If one party simply rubs salt into the many wounds that can be associated with the multi-sexual condition, the other heals its wounds lightly, by offering what amounts to religious dope, (Jeremiah 6:14 & 8:11.) At one extreme there’s ‘no grace’ at the other only the ‘cheap grace’ of the kind condemned by the German theologian and martyr Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Both these paths offer a quick way to Hell. What is needed is a fresh approach that steers a middle way between them. The warning that Christ gave against these extremes are still very apt, (Matthew 16:5-12). We ignore it at our peril.
    In order to avoid these two false alternatives it will be necessary to go back to Midrash and practice it in the same way as Jesus and the apostles. We need see Scripture through first century Hebraic eyes rather than from the perspective of a twenty-first century activist who’s keen to promote a cause. A factor that persuading me that the Holy Spirit is working in your lives was the way you were going down this direction anyway. For that let God be praised!
    What the area of Bible Hermeneutics does raise is the question ‘what theology must we base our sexual orientation on?’ In relation to multi-sexuality there seem to be only two options either ‘creation’ or the ‘fall.’ Arising from these two alternatives are:
    1) A multi-sexual creation theology which says, ‘God made me Gay let me celebrate it!’
    2) A multi-sexual fallen theology which says ‘Original sin made people Gay let me condemn it”
    However, I believe that both these positions are inadequate and suggest the need for a third alternative which is: –
    3) A multi-sexual redemption theology which says ‘Original sin may have made people Gay, but in His wonderful creative grace God can redeem that condition and bring great good out of it.’
    Where the fist alternative claims ‘there is no problem’ and the second ‘there is no solution,’ the third proclaims ‘there is a problem but it can through Jesus Christ be redeemed by God’s grace and love.’ Having outlined these three positions, I shall now begin to examine them in more detail.

    Multi-sexual creation theology

    The chief drawback with multi-sexual creation theology is that it’s not found in Scripture. Nowhere is it clearly taught that God made people ‘Gay.’ If multi-sexuality didn’t come from an act of creation where did it come from? The only answer is the ‘fall’ which blurred the hitherto fixed boundaries between male and female and sent many of our sexual drives into reverse gear. Another problem with this view is that muffles the need for redemption. By dealing with the multi-sexual issue lightly it can engender a false sense of security. Adopted is a superficial ‘pop psychology’ which glibly asserts ‘You’re OK, I’m OK, we’re all OK.’ The answer is none of us are OK until we’re made right with God through Jesus Christ. Until that point is reached, we’re all abominations in his sight. This applies equally to both heterosexuals and multi-sexuals. The main complaint that can be made against this option is that it denies the need for grace. It takes the absurd stance which assumes that ‘we’re OK, so there’s no need to look grace.’ This delusion dams people through its superficiality.

    Another drawback is reflected in the question ‘what about the poor transgenders?’ One feature of this highly puzzling condition is a ‘disconnect’ between a person’s mind and body. Their mind says they belong to one sex while their body belongs to another. Hence all the excruciating conflict and misery associated with the transgender condition. Now to explain it in terms of multi-sexual creation theology is to assume that at creation God ‘for his good pleasure’ decided to plonk female minds in male bodies and male minds in female bodies. The absurdity of this position should be obvious to anyone with a modicum of common sense. Not only does it portray God as some capricious cosmic prankster, it hardly squares with the claim made in Genesis 1:31 that everything God had made was ‘very good.’ This leaves only one other alternative which is to claim that a homosexual orientation is created by God but Transgenderism is a result of the fall. Somehow, I don’t think that stance will do much to promote relations between the ‘Gay’ and ‘Transgender’ within the CMC.

    A final objection is that it’s overemphasis on creation blurs the distinction between Christianity and other faiths. This inevitably leads to an inter-faith mish-mash. Martyr and I saw this for ourselves when (during the mid-1990s) we attended a Carol Service at a ‘Gay friendly’ Anglican Church located in an inner city area. Given the time of the year one would have thought that a ‘safer’ more traditional order of service would be followed – but not at all! It largely consisted of Pantheistic Mother Goddess Worship. After about twenty minutes of this nonsense we walked out. Martyr had to nudge me as I exclaimed loudly, “if I wanted a dose of Pantheistic Worship, I’d visit the local Hindu Temple.” We’ve never set foot in that Church again, (a recent look at its website confirms that it’s still Gay Friendly and now offers yoga classes). However in 1999, I did from hear from the daughter of a liberal university chaplain that this congregation had such a bad reputation for messing people up that he actively advised those under his pastoral care not to attend it. Having seen the man I know it would have taken a lot for him to say that. During the time of our visit the church was ran by a female vicar who lived with a female organist. You can imagine the ribald comments that were made about that relationship in the local community! You must understand that this sort of nonsense was the only thing Martyr and I ever saw of the CMC in Britain. Hence it seemed natural to equate active homosexuality with liberalism, pantheism and a complete lack of salvation. There was no reason to think otherwise. That indeed was our position until our encounter with you. As you may gather I have zero tolerance for religious stupidity no matter what form it may take. I’ve endured too much of it in my time.

    What passes for the CMC in this country still consists of the neo-pagan mish-mash I rejected almost two decades ago. Leaving aside issues of sexuality there’s no meeting point in terms of spirituality, basic philosophy, doctrine or practice. In short neither Martyr nor I anything in common with the UK branch of the CMC. When a meeting point does exist occur with multi-sexuals its in the cultural area where there’s potential to mingle with them on neutral ground. If God wants us to meet Christian Multi-sexuals he’ll have to bring them our way quite naturally and do so in the context of a structured environment. So far there’s no evidence of that happening but given what’s recent developments I cannot exclude the possibility. However, they’ll have to be a great deal of common ground if we’re going to get on. At present our policy is to cheerfully engage with any non-predatory multi-sexuals we find on the cultural scene while steering well clear of neo-pagan pseudo-Christians who’re open to anything but biblical truth. This policy may sound inconsistent but it’s the only workable one for now.

    Multi-sexual Fallen Theology

    The second option is at least more realistic in that it does at least take sin seriously. It also sensibly acknowledges that life in a fallen world means that we are often forced to choose between less bad options. In relation to homosexuality this may mean facing the choice between either burning away with frustration or finding a safe outlet in a monogamous relationship. However, if employed in isolation, this theological option can leave people wallowing in condemnation. I need say little about the problems arising from this narrow perspective because they’re very evident in the fraught relations that exist between Christian multi-sexuals and Conservative Churches in America. As you know all too well, the result is all too often depression and suicide.

    As a side note, I do wonder whether Fundamentalist Christian who aggressively hate multi-sexuals have ever really known God’s grace? Have they ever known what it’s like to stagger under the weight of sin, have revealed to them the depths of their depravity or experienced God’s wonderful way of redeeming deep rooted personality flaws? Is it really a case of ‘empty vessels making most sound’ or ‘sound and fury signifying nothing?’ I shall leave you to decide. However some of the hate I’ve seen them display on You Tube Videos makes me wonder whether they’ve really enjoyed a real encounter with Jesus? Few of them appear to have asked ‘Lord how should we respond to this issue? What strategy do you want us to follow?’ I did the day England and Wales held their first same sex marriages and God’s answer to that prayer has been a major and unsought for Damascus Road turnaround that caused me to land like a stranded whale on your Blogg. The trouble with many ‘Gay hating’ fundamentalists is that they are too full of their own prejudices to listen to the Holy Spirit is saying about the Multi-sexual issue. Fear, rather than faith motivates many of their actions. However, my main complaint about Fundamentalists is the way they’ve allowed themselves to be diverted from their main mission of preaching the gospel to fighting cultural wars they cannot hope to win. This is not to deny that Christians should challenge negative cultural trends as and when they are led to do so, but this secondary task should never be to the exclusion of the primary task which is to fulfil great commission of Matthew 28:19f. Here, Satan has won a real victory.

    They can also be criticised for missing the point of Fundamental Christian Doctrine which is to encourage the ‘fruit of the Spirit listed in Galatians 5:22-23. One effect of absorbing such teaching should be humility (i.e. realism about our capacity to do evil once certain restraints have been removed). This point should be evident from reading such classic works as ‘The Fundamentals’ from which the name ‘Fundamentalism’ is derived. Having read and annotated all four volumes twice over I can saw what a great treasure trove of teaching was contained in them. (They once got me into trouble because they just missed my wife’s head when they dropped from the overcrowded bookshelf above our bed.) This teaching was of sufficient quality to make today’s so called ‘Christian Fundamentalists’ appear brain dead in comparison. My chief criticism of ‘Gay hating’ fundamentalists is that they have failed to be fundamentalist enough. With blinkered stupidity, they have, by their hatred, driven many multi-sexuals into the arms of neo-pagan liberals who can only offer the spiritual equivalent of rat poison. By increasing an awareness of my own sinfulness fundamental doctrine has helped me to engage with elements of the multi-sexual community. If they’re sinners so am I; if they need the redemptive forgiveness that can only ever be found in Christ’s atonement so do I; if they need inner cleansing by the Holy Spirit so do I! I can engage on equal rather than ‘superior than thou’ contacts with multi-sexuals it’s because fundamentalist doctrine has been a tool through which God has shown me that I’m a corrupt sinner in continual need of grace. I make this point not in a mood of false humility but rather in one of grim realism. At Auschwitz I saw what unrestrained sin could do.

    Lying at the root of fundamentalism’s attitude to Multi-sexuality is a Platonic Dualism which only regards a narrow area of the spiritual as being truly valid. This consists of the world of Church, evangelistic activity and full time ‘Christian work.’ In contrast to the supposedly inferior or ‘carnal’ material realm which is barely tolerated, the spiritual is seen as being the realm of the beautiful, the Godly and perfect. By definition that multi-sexuals cannot hope to fit into it. Instead, they are seen as corrupting and polluting it – often at the behest of Satan himself. Evangelical Christian Platonists cannot tolerate the messiness of life. They view it as a threat to their own unscriptural idea of perfection.

    All these factors combine to male followers of a multi-sexual fallen theology can be like an ill tempered Doctor who accurately diagnosis’ a disease only to refuse a cure. This is hardly a constructive or scriptural position. To honour God’s Word, it is necessary to move beyond this approach by adopting multi-sexual redemption theology.

    Multi-sexual Redemption theology

    The great advantage of this approach is that it takes sin seriously. We’re a long way from ‘God affirms you are you are’ nonsense of the first option. However, it balances this emphasis by acknowledging that God’s creative grace is so great, so good, so loving that it can take something that’s flawed, broken and sinful and then turn it into something that’s complete, beautiful and awesome. As 2 Corinthians 12:9 indicates, God’s grace is sufficient to redeem (i.e. bring good out of) the most adverse of conditions. He does this to magnify Himself and rule out any grounds for human boasting, (Ephesians 2:9). One reason God can bless our relationships is that He has redeemed us through the sacrificial death of His son the Lord Jesus Christ. As multi-sexuals have indeed endured greater condemnation they can also endure greater grace. At the cultural level, this can be seen in the phenomenal artistic and creative abilities they have often been endowed with. (Here, the renaissance artists, some of whose products I saw during my visit to Rome, come to mind.) However, the endowment of such abilities is usually associated with God’s common grace. With regard to the special grace of salvation the greater condemnation that multi-sexuals have endured from the world and the church is an opportunity for God to compensate them by giving extra amounts of grace. Sometimes this might be sometimes this might take the form of a special talent or gift but on other occasions it can be take the form of relationship. Remember the greater the condemnation the greater the grace, but to deny the element if condemnation is also to deny the element of grace for how can grace exist apart from condemnation? This was a point Jesus highlighted in such passages as Matthew 18:23f & Luke 7:45-47.

    A final advantage of multi-sexual redemption theology is that it helps to preserve a distinctive bible-based Christian identity. It does this by offering a Christ-centred hope in a way that the theologies we’ve discussed can’t match. Consequently, I really do commend it to you. One reason for doing this is that I’m very aware of the mercy and grace God has shown to me amidst my many sins and weaknesses. If God can redeem the most fallen aspects of my personality then I’m confident that he can do the same with you. Therefore I’m totally unwilling to deny you and your spouse the grace and mercy He has shown to martyr and I during half a lifetime of marriage. To do so would be hypocritical.

    The chief conclusion to draw from this discussion is that if you want Conservative Christians to accept you as valid believers you must go by the redemption route by showing the fruits of that redemption in your lives. If you just harp on about ‘God made me as I am’ they’ll either reach for a glass of bourbon or a twelve bore shot gun. That kind of argument plays very badly in Conservative circles. It also plays badly with me because intellectually I just don’t find it credible. Logically, it’s the equivalent of saying God has made the arthritis afflicting my left knee. So with regard to you and your spouse I believe I have encountered a case of redeemed lesbianism. Just over a month ago I wouldn’t have believed that this was possible. However, the evidence of our correspondence has shown otherwise. In such circumstances I follow the advice of the ‘Gay’ economist John Maynard Keynes who said ‘if the facts change I change.’

    Different Routes

    On a highly speculative note, I do wonder whether we’re coming to the same answer by different routes. A liberal would validate your relationship on the basis of creation but a conservative believer like myself, can only ever validate it on the basis of redemption. They would also argue that it is their view which provides the greater honour to God’s grace. In this conversation of ours we appear to have opened up vast areas for theological exploration; present are issues that both the CMC and Conservative Christians will have to grapple with for years if they are to mature in their understanding of scripture. Somehow I think our posting could stir up a few debates. So how can a rather doctrinaire grumpy Christian conservative who doesn’t suffer religious fools gladly accept and actually begin a friendship with a lesbian couple? Well the fact that you don’t appear to be into ‘Mother Goddess’ worship helps greatly, but seriously I can accept you as fellow believers because you and your spouse bear the hallmarks of redemption. The fruit of the Spirit is very evident in your life and in your relationship. However I believe that such good fruit can occur not because God created you as a lesbian but because Jesus died for you and gave you His righteousness. IT IS ONLY THROUGH THE MERITS OF JESUS CHRIST THAT YOU AND YOUR SPOUSE CAN BEAR THE GOOD FRUIT THAT HAS BEEN SO NOTICEABLE IN OUR ENCOUNTERS. Through His atonement you’ve made complete in His sight. By His grace, something that could have been highly destructive has been turned into something wonderfully constructive. As my brother-in-law remarked during a recent telephone conversation ‘the old sparkle’ has come back to me in Church affairs. Thanks in part to you, after two years of wandering in the dark, my interest in Christian affairs has been re-kindled. Even Martyr has noticed I’m less of a big misery thing than usual.

    However, this position of ‘acceptance through redemption’ is unlikely to satisfy either extreme of the pro and anti-Gay divide. To Fundamentalists it reeks of compromise and ‘back door’ liberalism; but to liberals it reeks of dogmatism and ‘back door’ fundamentalism. Consequently, it’s likely to draw fire from both sides which may well confirm that it’s the right position to follow. However, multi-sexual redemption theology seems to be the only theology capable of building an intellectual bridge between the highly polarised multi-sexual and conservative Christian camps of America. Although much further examination of Scripture will be required, I also believe that it is a position that could do most to reflect the teaching of God’s Word. Admittedly this approach is very tentative and is one proposed in the full realization that it could be entirely misguided – but for now it appears to offer the only feasible way forward. Trying to build bridges between these two camps on the basis of emotion may represent a start but it is only a start. A far more rigorous intellectual approach will have to be applied if any permanent bridge building is to be accomplished (assuming for the sake of argument, that such a task is possible).

    A Question of Interpretation

    With regard to the interpretation of Genesis 19 and other related passages it’s very evident that we come to God’s Word from two different starting points. While you begin with the question ‘how does this passages NOT apply to the CMC?’ I begin with the question ‘How does this passage apply today?’ We inevitably we get different answers because we ask different questions. The great strength of your hermeneutics is the way you take seriously the historical and linguistic context but your great weakness is that you don’t see how the situation described in Genesis 19 could be relevant for contemporary society. The result is that this passage looses much of its ability to challenge readers of any sexual orientation. Admittedly what you have done is provide a convincing case that the sin of S and G consisted of mainly gang rape and the violation of contemporary hostility laws, but you appear to miss the crucial point that people can become so intoxicated with sexual fantasies that they lose all contact with reality and the ability to find the ‘door’ of salvation. In an age of mass internet pornography this warning is more relevant today then it’s ever been. Where you emphasise the way Genesis 19 doesn’t apply I highlight the way it DOES apply through the use of Midrash hermeneutics which see’s the same destructive forms of behaviour as being a constantly re-occurring feature across the ages. Oddly enough, our contrasting approaches may be in complementary in the sense that sometimes it’s helpful to see how a passage may NOT apply, before seeing how it DOES apply. However, it seems that more work still needs to be done in this area. To some extent we may both be on the frontiers of knowledge.

    However if you are to avoid lulling your intended readership into a false sense of security it is highly advisable to end any study of the subject with an unambiguous Gospel message. This may consist of a simple exposition of John 3:16 or some other passage but it will follow the argument which says, ‘God may not be against monogamous same sex marriage but until redeemed through faith in Jesus we are still alienated from Him and under that general wrath that we share with the rest of humanity.’ You of course would present that argument in a way that’s suited to your audience, but a Gospel which doesn’t take some account of God’s anger against sin is a Polly Anna Gospel which is really no Gospel at all. I needn’t point out to someone of your profound knowledge that scripture takes a very dim view of those who preach an adulterated ‘feel good’ Gospel that are designed to please those with itching ears for error, (Galatians 1:8 & 2 Timothy 4:1-3). Sadly, America is awash with such Gospels. Some of them even land on our shores.

    Concluding comments

    At the end of this piece it appears that there three areas of overlapping interest with members the CMC. These are: –
    1) Experience of rejection by the Church
    2) Shared cultural and theological preoccupations
    3) An awareness of the need for redemption
    This suggests that there is a basis to build on. Consequently, both Martyr and I would be unwise not to consider doing so.

    By now it should be apparent that ‘we’ve gone around the houses’ as we say in my part of the world. Therefore it’s necessary for me to re-state that you can feel free to take your time to respond to this post. Please don’t feel under any pressure to make a hurried response. There has been much for both of us to digest and a few days break in order to assimilate key points will be wise. In the meantime I will eagerly look forward to awaiting your reply. For now, I’m becoming more persuaded that should I go onto GCN it would be best to confine myself to lighter cultural matters and (should the opportunity arise naturally) a simple witness to the saving atonement of Jesus Christ. For some reason, I think I’ve already found my venue for heavyweight debate. It’s all been very taxing in a happy sort of way. I hope that you and your spouse feel the same. Please try not to nod of when you read this piece!

    • Hello Dear Raymond!
      This is not my big reply to your big reply, as I will need more time to respond to the many points that you made… But I did want to give you a little appetizer as you wait… 😉 I first must say that your breakdown of the 7R’s is the most brilliant and profound description of sexual orientation that I have ever come across in my entire lifetime. Martyr 2 calls it “simple yet profound.” It is simple in the way that it helps all people digest a very misunderstood topic, and profound in that you have such an amazing highly intellectual understanding put in such perfect and precise terms. We are both astonished and impressed… And how did you come up with it all to be with the letter R so perfectly? Haha! Phenomenal!!!! I will get more into this and other topics, especially the aspect of redemption and sanctification which is most important. As you wait for my next reply, I wanted to share something with you that I wrote this week and added to the end of my main website of “homosexuality in the Bibe: an alternative perspective.” It is a new conclusion section which was partially inspired by your most recent comment, although I had only read through half of it upon writing this, so it could evolve as time goes on to include more of your vitally important points which I highly agree. I will post it here for you to read:

      This body of Biblical research provides strong evidence that the original texts of the Bible do not condemn all of homosexuality, but specifically target acts of harm such as homosexual acts of gang-rape, prostitution, molestation, promiscuity, sex acts in idol worship, etc. It further demonstrates that the Bible does not explicitly condemn consensual same-gender God-centered monogamous, life-long unions. However, it must be acknowledged that despite this information, the Bible still does not explicitly mention support of same-gender unions. This lack of mention does not prove condemnation, but it also does not prove explicit acceptance, as the Bible does not mention every matter, but does speak to every person. Although much evidence can be gathered that it is not condemned, due to the lack of word-for-word explicit Scriptural acceptance, one must rely on the guidance of the Holy Spirit to do the Will of God in faith for their own life. We are explicitly taught to act according to bestowing love to God and others and flee from harming God and others. One should ask, what then will bear the most Spiritual fruit; To condemn, suppress, or express love?

      If you have a homosexual orientation, it is best to ask God how He can use this for His glory in light of His grace. For some, it may be a call to celibacy to honor God and be a positive testimony to others with the same conviction. For others, they may be convicted to have liberty to be in a God-centered same-sex union to honor God and be a positive testimony to others with the same conviction. Lastly, with the most warning, some may be called into a heterosexual union despite their lack of heterosexual attractions to honor God and be a positive testimony to others with the same conviction. This last one has a warning attached only because it can easily cause harm to the heterosexual spouse and give false hope to others, but in some rare cases, this can be a positive testimony and has the potential blessing of dual-biological children. Furthermore, there are those who were sexually abused that sometimes identify with the homosexual sexual aspect of orientation but are in fact natural heterosexuals, so any claim of “change” in orientation must be viewed with great caution. Be sure to follow the guidance of God for your part in this rather than the fallible ideas of humans in this world. Regarding these things, remember Romans 12:2-5:
      “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the Will of God…For by the Grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think, but to think with sound judgment each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. For as in one body we have many parts and the parts do not have all the same function. So we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually parts one of another.”

      Furthermore, we must admit that the original first design mentioned in the Bible is marriage between a male and female. It has been shown to me that this saying “the two shall become one flesh” means that the two (male and female) shall become one flesh (produce a child.) I am the one flesh of the two of my parents, as are all of you. The first creation design was in fact male and female for this reason of continuation, and we know that the perfect eternal New Creation has no focus on gender. We are not yet in the New Creation, however, procreation is no longer mandatorily commanded, as even Jesus says “not everyone can accept this saying, but only to those to whom it was given.” (Matthew 19:11.) We are also told that “in the beginning, God created them male and female,” but now we are told “we are no longer male and female, but one in Jesus Christ.” (Matthew 19:4/Mark 10:6, Galatians 3:28). Interestingly, the Greek word used for “female” (thélus, strong number 2338, 5 occurrences) only in these above verses AND in Romans 1:26,27 is an ADJECTIVE, not a noun. So as a descriptive word, it is a type of female meaning “a woman with nursing breasts” which shows its tie to procreation. So it would not be an error to reflect the New Creation which ignores gender rather than the old first creation that demands marital procreation of the two becoming one flesh. This is not to say that all should stop procreation, but that it is of our own free will to do so, just as Jesus confirms.

      The original first design for marriage does not prove that same-gender marriages are illegitimate to God, but rather that they are an adaptation to the blueprint of marriage presented in Scripture as a God-centered lifelong monogamous covenant. Just as the message came “first to the Jew, then to the Gentile,” the blueprint for marriage became known first to the heterosexual, then to the homosexual. Romans 11 gives the image of an Olive tree as the family of God. The first “natural branches” represent the Jews as God’s first chosen people. The “branches grafted into the Olive tree” represent the Gentiles who were “grafted in contrary to nature” (Romans 11:24). Let me now make a symbolic comparison. So if the original first design of marriage was between a male and female, these are like the first natural branches. Now as for a marriage between the same-gender, these are like the branches grafted in despite being contrary to the natural branches. It should be acknowledged that Biblical linguistics show more than a symbolic comparison. The Greek phrase “contrary to nature” (“para physin,” Strong numbers 3884 & 5449, phrase – 2 occurrences) in this verse about God’s acceptance of the unnatural Gentiles is the exact same as the Greek phrase for “contrary to nature” in Romans 1:26. Once again, this Greek phrase only occurs twice in all of Scripture in Romans 1:26 and Romans 11:24. So let us not dishonor either type of the branches, the natural first nor the unnatural grafted, as it warns, “Do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, consider this: You do not support the Root, but the Root supports you.” (Romans 11:18). So be humbled by His amazing grace and know that you are loved by Him despite the prideful condemnation from the world. This is my conviction of faith as it pertains to these things…

      With this said, one must pray for discernment for the Will of God in their own life regarding these matters. It is best to always remember that we are all sinners and need the redemptive power of grace offered through the blood sacrifice of the One and Only Savior, Yeshua Ha-Mashiach (Jesus the Messiah). If you are in a romantic same-sex union, pray for it to be sanctified by the grace of God. Not because you believe it is otherwise a sin, but because all marriages should be sanctified for the glory of Yahweh! We must remember, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy!” (Acts 10:15). Keep Him first in everything that you do and never forget the grace bestowed on all of us as fallen sinners. Remember that we are all sinners worthy of death, “but you were washed, you were sanctified and you were justified in the name of The Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:11). So with this said, pray for your role with Scriptural knowledge and thank Yahweh for His grace offered through His Son. Always remember His words: “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in your weakness.” (2 Corinthians 12:9).

      So this is all for now, but I will be writing to you in the coming week as time permits. Your contact has been such a blessing to us and we have only grown in the knowledge of our God all the more. This is such a mutually beneficial relationship for all of us and has helped us grow emotionally and Spiritually. For this we thank you both. 🙂 You are in our prayers as always. Until next time our dear friends…
      Your sisters in Christ,
      Moanti & Martyr 2
      P.S. Our 3-legged, plump, and sassy felines also send a friendly meow and purr to their grumpy feline cousin across the ocean. 🙂

    • Hello Raymond,
      Thank you for your comprehensive remarks on these topics! I have finally completed this long reply… I apologize again for it being such a delay. Just as with yours, I have titled sections with headings to make this easier to read. So here is a brief preview of the table of contents:

      1.) The truth of Grace & Redemption Theology applied to multi-sexuals -A Biblical Hebraic’s perspective
      [For those reading who are unaware, “multi-sexuals” is a term coined by Raymond in place of “LGBT.” Read previous comments for his explanation.]

      2.) Hermeneutics of Romans 1- Historical & modern application for all orientations

      3.) Exploration & vindication of “the 7 R’s”
      [“The 7 R’s” is the most BRILLIANT categorized sexual orientation description I have ever come across, coined by Raymond of course!]

      4.) Sexual orientation “Houdini act”

      5.) Anatomy of creation or fallen mutation?

      6.) Sodom & Give-Me-More-Of….

      7.) Personal and closing thoughts

      As with all things, I would ask that you stop and pray before and after reading this so that you will be bestowed with full discernment by the guiding and knowledge of the Holy Spirit.

      1.) The truth of Grace & Redemption Theology applied to multi-sexuals -A Biblical Hebraic’s perspective

      I will start out by confirming that we are working from the basis of truth by focusing on what truth represents from a Biblical perspective. I’m not sure what you have read in my blog, but hopefully you have been able to read through my most recent article on the “hidden” meaning within the Hebrew words in Scripture. https://moanti.wordpress.com/2014/04/26/aramaic-and-hebrew-letters-reveal-hidden-meaning-in-the-bible-including-the-words-for-god-jesus-peace-sin-homosexuality-etc/ The Ancient Hebrew language has a deep symbolic meaning within each individual letter, so we can uncover hidden messages by individually looking at each letter-meaning within a word. So we search for TRUTH, and it gives us the way on all our paths going forward. Here is what I found:
      TRUTH – אֱמֶת Emeth
      אֱ – The letter Aleph symbolizes God and power. [The 1st letter in the Hebrew Alephbet]
      מֶ – The letter Mem symbolizes Mighty and blood. [The middle letter in the Hebrew Alephbet]
      ת – The letter Tav symbolizes 2 crossed sticks (the ancient letter looks like a cross) and covenant. [The last letter in the Hebrew Alephbet.]
      So what is truth? It symbolizes the redemptive sacrifice of Yeshua; “The Power of God’s mighty blood covenant on the cross!” The letters being the 1st, middle and last in the Alephbet also shows it’s all encompassing nature of truth. Therefore, all truth points to God and the sacrifice of His Son. So through this lens, we cannot fail. We know that Yeshua is the Messiah, and with cross-reference (no pun intended), we see a deeper meaning behind these verses from His words:

      “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the TRUTH, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'” -John 14:6 =
      “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the *Power of God’s mighty blood covenant on the cross*, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'” [*quote added for emphasis.]

      “sanctify them in Thy TRUTH…” -John 17:17 =
      “sanctify them in Thy *Power of God’s mighty blood covenant on the cross*.” [*quote added for emphasis.]

      “and you will know the TRUTH and the TRUTH will set you free.” – John 8:32. =
      “and you will know the *Power of God’s mighty blood covenant on the cross*, and the *Power of God’s mighty blood covenant on the cross* will set you free.” [*quote added for emphasis.]

      So if TRUTH sets us free and sanctifies us, then we know we are only set free and sanctified (declared as holy) by the power of God’s mighty blood covenant on the cross. The intent of this Mighty blood Covenant comes from grace. So now this leads me to ponder what grace represents;
      GRACE – חֵן Chen
      חֵ – The letter Chet represents being divided, or separated ‘outside of the tent wall.’ (“Tent” represents family and temple.)
      ן – The letter Nun represents Son, heir and reward of faith.

      So clearly, GRACE humbly shows us that we would be divided from the family and temple of God if it were not for the Son, and with grace we become an heir in the family of God. This is a reward of our faith. I bring these things up because of what you said about redemption and grace. You said we should seek to find a “middle ground,” and the multi-sexual should ask God how to manage their homosexuality in light of His grace through the lens of His redemption. I could not agree more! Because truth encompasses the power of God’s Mighty blood covenant on the cross, grace encompasses His redemption from separation. Working from this platform of the truth of grace, we know we are not in error. For the power of His blood is beyond the human mind of understanding, and forgiveness is bound within the grace of sanctification. Praises be to Yahweh for His TRUTH that sets us free and sets us apart as holy in His sight by His Grace!

      So lastly, I must highlight the action involved in redemption and how it points, as always, to God and our Savior Yeshua.
      REDEEM – גָּאַל Gaal
      גָּ – The letter Gimal represents being gathered and walking.
      אַ – The letter Aleph represents God and leader.
      ל – The letter Lamed represents a shepherd staff and teach, yoke and bind. [Side note for reference: A “yoke” is a wooden crosspiece that is fastened around the necks of 2 animals who pull a load in a cart.]

      The words of Yeshua come to mind: “Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:29,30). So altogether, REDEMPTION is found by walking with God as our leader with Yeahuah’s yoke upon us. Furthermore, it shows how God gathers us as a shepherd to teach us and we are bound to Him in redemption. Yeshua proclaims that His yoke is easy and His burden is light and we will find rest for our souls. Therefore, as our leader, walking side by side and guided by Him, we are led into redemption.

      As you said, many have different paths. This reminds me of how we each have our role in the body of Christ. Not everyone is a hand or an eye or a foot. We have different parts, and likewise, God uses us and guides us in different ways to fulfill His Will. If we work through the lens of His redemption, we can be sanctified through His grace. With this said, as a believer, we have the truth and it sets us free from the bondage of sin and it’s price, which is death. Instead, we are sanctified by His sacrifice and bound together by His grace which redeems us and leads us to eternal life. So instead of the “Guilty” or “Not Guilty” stance, how about we all (gay and straight alike) say “Guilty, but redeemed!” As Acts 10:15 rings so true, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy!”

      These ideas that you propose of redemption through grace build a bridge between the gap of fundamentalist and liberal believers on the multi-sexual issue. Like two colors mixing one into another, each can be seen with new color bringing harmony to both. Symbolically, this color should be Red, as it reminds us of the Mighty Blood of redemption. (On an arbitrary side note, I know red is a primary color and can’t be derived by 2 colors, hehe. But as the green waters of the River Nile can be turned to red blood by the staff of Moses, the blood of Yeshua can permeate all with His redeeming grace, as the density of this Holy power covers all things.) Wether from creation or the fall, our sexuality can be used and sanctified through His redeeming grace. Without redemption, the two other theologies fall flat.

      Even though heterosexuality is by creation, this orientation can certainly be misused (wether by promiscuity, adultery, lusts, etc.) Consequently, even one’s heterosexuality should be expressed in the proper context (i.e., marital covenant) and be sanctified by the Lord’s grace. In a similar way, homosexuality, wether by creation or the fall, should be used and expressed in a way that brings glory to God through His redeeming sanctification.

      You have shed light on the most important thing that brings a loud wake up call to both stances (fundamentalist and liberal.) This truth brings life to both. It simply offers the truth of redeeming grace as the solution, which as we can see in the Hebrew words TRUTH, GRACE and REDEEM (emeth, chen, gaal) is all encompassing truth of the power of God’s Mighty blood Covenant on the cross that breaks our separation and makes us heirs in God’s home as a reward of our faith when we take His yoke upon us.

      2.) Hermeneutics of Romans 1- Historical & modern application for all orientations

      Now looking at “truth” from a Biblical perspective on the topic of homosexual behavior, it seems that Romans 1 gives a clear vision of who Paul was speaking to. We know that these people “exchanged the TRUTH for a lie.” They did this by “exchanging worship of God for worship of created images, i.e. idols.” (Side note: This verse speaks to worship of physical un-living objects, as the original Greek literally translates as “an image [eikonos] crafted in the likeness of [homoiomati].”) Lastly, they “exchanged natural for unnatural.” Exchanging truth for a lie even in the context of this verse is inherently exchanging the power of God’s mighty blood covenant on the cross for a lie. They rejected worship of God and His offer of redemption and exchanged it for worship of created images and acts of unnatural worship. When we look before the fall of mankind in the garden, we see that the order of nature was inherently to worship Yahweh. This is what is defined as natural. The sin brought into the world by the fall of Adam and Eve has caused people to go against this order of nature and worship things contrary to Yahweh. Anything contrary to worship of Yahweh is a reflection of the father of lies. However, this does NOT mean that anything and everything “unnatural” or “contrary to nature” is inherently connected to sinful acts that are rejected by God. The same words used in Romans 1 to describe the men and women acting “contrary to nature” (i.e., using non-procreative sex [in context to exalt worship to their created images]) are the same words used in Romans 11 to refer to the Gentiles being ACCEPTED into God’s redemption despite it being “contrary to nature” [“para physin,” Strong numbers 3884 & 5449, phrase – 2 occurrences]. The Olive Tree root is God, and the natural branches are His chosen, the Jews. The branches grafted in “contrary to nature” are the Gentiles given salvation into the family of God. If we cry against all unnatural acts, than we cry against our own redemption!

      We know that God makes a way and always wins out despite the enemy’s plans. So we know that ALL THINGS work together for good for those who love God. All things must also include that which is contrary to nature, so as long as one places worship in God. The power of His blood washes over all sin. The Romans biggest fault was not their non-procreative acts of sex, but the reason for their non-procreative acts of sex, which was to worship and exalt created images over the Creator. This is not something that the multi-sexual Christian ever has in mind when the foundation of their union is to exalt Christ together.

      So looking at the description of people in Romans 1, we do not see a description of gays and lesbians nor a description of monogamous gay and lesbian relationships. Even more so, we do not see a description of gay (or straight) Christians who have accepted the blood sacrifice of Yeshua. It does NOT say “they worshiped God, but desired to marry each other in the same gender, therefore God gave them up and rejected them as worshiping each other over Him.” Rather, all of those in Romans 1 explicitly had knowledge of the Creator, but chose to reject Him and exchanged Him for worship of created images! This can in no way describe any Christian believer, as a Christian has chosen the opposite by choosing to worship the Creator, not created images.

      However, as you stated, one must look at both the linguistic historical writing and audience as well as the modern practical application. Although Romans 1 speaks of those who rejected God and consciously chose idolatry (not a description of Christians), we can see that Paul makes clear that ALL are guilty of sin and there is nothing we can do to save ourselves apart from accepting God’s Mighty blood covenant on the cross for redemption. We are shown how all are guilty until we are sanctified through the grace of the one and only sacrifice of the Messiah. Only then can we practice true righteousness in the sight of God. Paul shows us the way of Yeshua and is not ashamed of the Gospel because he knew it was the means by how everyone is saved.

      Looking closer at Romans 1 in a modern application, we can see that we can become rebellious against God and given over to the things of the world by placing them before worship of Him. Idolatry can be modernly applied to many things other than created images. Even seemingly harmless distractions can keep us from worship and serve as an idol. Anything put before worship of Yahweh can become an idol in our own life, so it is crucial to keep focus on putting Him first and at the center of everything that we do. I feel it is a wise thing to do all things unto The Lord and ask for His guidance to act in a way that brings glory to Him. Even when we are put to tasks that we begrudgingly dislike, if we do it as His servant knowing it brings joy and glory to Him, than we do it unto The Lord.

      We are to proclaim the Gospel to all creatures, so this includes showing the love of Yahweh in our actions around all those we have contact. When people can witness the Fruits of the Holy Spirit through our actions, it can bring curiosity of the unbeliever to question the reason for such fruits. But when we don’t keep God in mind through our actions, it bears negative fruit and others can become disillusioned with Christianity. When we mess up, we must humbly admit our mistakes and seek forgiveness, and always give that same forgiveness back to others. This shows our humanity and our humility. We do not claim to be perfect or live in perfection, but are perfected through the redemption of the one and only Savior through grace which is a gift given to us despite our unworthiness. I have heard it said that “to some, we (as Christians) are the only Bible that they have ever read.” So if we spew hate speech and exclusivity and self-righteousness, this brings rotten fruit to the lost souls in need of redemption. (What a shame it is when unbelievers can truthfully accuse us of hypocrisy!) But if we show the love of Christ through our actions and give credit and glory to God, we can help plant the seeds of Salvation in others. But even in our private affairs and thoughts, it is best to keep Yahweh in mind so that we don’t become enveloped into things that could serve as an idol. When we rely on His guidance in all things, His peace will guard our hearts and minds. Paul called himself “the chief of all sinners,” yet God chose him to share the Gospel. What a testimony he has from going from his actions of Saul to Paul! Our testimony of grace is shown through our humbleness and genuineness of our imperfect humanity which has only been sanctified by the redeeming blood of Yeshua Ha-Mashiach.

      3.) Exploration & vindication of “the 7 R’s”

      So moving forward, I must say again that your theory of multi-sexuality in the 7R’s is the most brilliantly profound explanation I have seen. For reference purposes, I will copy it here:

      R1: The Recreational who indulge (often temporarily) a particular orientation for experimental and recreational purposes
      R2: The Repressed who deny they have a particular orientation
      R3: The Renouncers who renounce and repudiate a particular orientation
      R4: The Restrainers who admit to having but choosing to restrain a particular orientation, often through celibacy
      R5: The Relaters who seek to find a safe outlet for their orientation in a monogamous relationship
      R6: The Rampant who only want to enjoy a large number of casual, promiscuous relationships
      R7: The Reprobate who impose their sexual preferences on other (often vulnerable) people without their consent

      It seems that the American media primarily covers the R1 and R6, which has confused much of the fundamentalist church into believing that homosexuality is a choice, fetish and/or promiscuous sexual perversion. The visibility of the R1 and R6 in the media makes many see this as the only homosexuality (aside from one more as I will describe next.) To be fair, the media also covers the R7, but molestation and rape is not seen as a part of homosexuality to those with knowledge of sexual orientation, but a separate act of abusive behaviors… If we were to apply the Seven R’s to heterosexuality, some might contest that R7 is not a “part” of heterosexuality in a sexual orientation context. The same rings true for homosexuality. It does represent a way of expression within an orientation, but is not the effect of the orientation. Meaning that the gender of the perpetrator and victim are irrelevant to the actual sexual orientation when the motive of the sexual encounter is an abusive power act itself rather than a target of attraction to gender. This is how we can see so many heterosexual adult married males abusing boy children. This is NOT an R2 or R3 true homosexual who has moved onto an R7 status, but rather an adult heterosexual (much more often than not based on all valid studies) who has access to a male gendered child. Female children are not often left alone with adult males for this very reason. You often see the married heterosexual male abusing whomever he has private access. When we do observe the female child being sexually abused, it is most often committed by a trusted male family member due to close private access. Perhaps King James said it best in the realm of R7’s, as “ABUSERS of themselves with mankind.” So the conservative church has confused the R7 molester/rapist as the cornerstone of homosexuality itself. No wonder they feel so convicted at its sinfulness! This same confusion can be seen recently in Russia, as they have criminalized any gay affirming public talk or written material because they believe it protects children from child abuse and/or being “recruited” into homosexuality. There is also talk of Russian legislation to remove adopted children from gay couples homes, and they have already banned orphan children from being adopted by any country that supports gay adoption (including the United States.) This is because they fully believe that being gay equates to a higher likelihood of pedophilia and see homosexuality as something that can be recruited. Pedophilia and homosexuality are separate issues entirely. One cannot be “recruited” to be gay anymore than they can be recruited to be straight, or it would seem that everyone would be straight due to being in such a hetero-centric world. I urge you to pray on this matter diligently, as it is important to recognize it as a completely separate issue.

      Another confusion of the R7 category is prison rape and prison same-gender sex. Many see this as homosexual orientation, but more often than not, these rapes and sexual encounters are performed by otherwise heterosexual males and females. Rape is a power play in the prison system, and sexual encounters are often observed between inmates deprived of conjugal visits. I once heard the latter be called “an emergency act of homosexuality.” (Haha!) These homosexual acts between otherwise heterosexuals are just that, homosexual acts. This is quite separate from the actual innate orientation of the individual. In much of the American prison system, known gay and lesbian inmates are often purposefully separated in protective custody as not to be sexually exploited. This is not to excuse all homosexuals from the R7 category, but to say that validated statistics prove that they are of a minuscule amount to the full population and often misunderstood as being the highest expression of the orientation which is simply false.

      A few other things that are commonly confused due to lack of understanding are adults who appear to “become” homosexual at a later age. People often mistake the long married woman who comes out in her 50’s as someone who “turned into” a lesbian. But this type of person is usually in the R2 or R3 categories. Repression is the most common, as some claim to not even realize that they are gay until later in life. I used to be very speculative of these types and thought “how on earth could they not know” or just assumed they were bisexual. Yet I have personally encountered many of these R2’s and they genuinely seemed to repress their homosexuality to such a degree that they only realized it in hindsight. To someone as self-aware as me, this seemed outlandish. But I have come to see that many truly are confused and it doesn’t cross their mind until they are confronted with the self-realization that what they had mistaken as strong admiration of the same gender was actually attraction. Even Martyr 2 showed signs of repression until early adulthood and realized in hindsight that she had been in love with several of her female best friends. This can be attributed to the hetero-centricity of society, as we are all taught from a young age in storybooks and movies about heterosexual moms and dads, heterosexual dating, heterosexual love, heterosexual marriage, etc. Not until recently, the thought that one could have these same romantic feelings directed towards the same gender was out of the realm of public discussion. So many just followed the way of the majority and never questioned their feelings until they were confronted with them.

      My experience was quite different in that I have always been self-aware. I distinctly remember having my first innocent crush on a girl in kindergarten and wanting to be close with her. When the boys were running around kissing the girls on the playground, I wanted to do the same and did. Haha! This was long before I learned about homosexuality existing, yet I always related to the male characters in love stories, not because I wanted to be or look like a man, but simply for the fact that I was attracted to the relationship that the male had with the female character. Once my hormones kicked in, I had my first serious crush on my female friend at age 10. I knew this was the same feeling that the other girls had for boys. Yet still, I was innocent enough never to have been taught about homosexuality. Several months later I heard my first sermon on the issue at my school chapel service and how it was condemned in Scripture. I immediately recognized it for what it was and tried to rebuke it. I dramatically rejected my female friend who I had feelings for because I didn’t want to make God mad. To this day I feel badly at the situation concerning this, as she never understood my sudden rejection without any explanation. It reminds me of a person releasing a beloved animal into the wild and having to throw rocks at it to make it go away into the forest where it belongs. (Of course there were no rocks or forests involved, but I say this in an allegorical sense. Haha.) Finally by high school I fell madly in love with my female best friend and knew it. By this time I was in utter torment between wanting her closeness and feeling rejected by God. I loved her throughout my high school years, but did everything I could to steer from my feelings which came to a point of rejecting her friendship and going into Christian counseling to do reparative therapy. I could go on and on, but my point is that I was fully aware of my same-gender attraction long before I had ever learned of its existence.

      A quick word on the R6 “rampant” type. There are of course many heterosexuals who fit this bill. But when it comes to gays (especially gay males), I have often wondered if this was partly due to the lack of legalized same-sex marriage as well as the Biblical condemnation against homosexuality. Now that same-sex marriage is advancing, the new generation of gays might be apt to be more monogamous. This is an unfounded theory of course… But I have wondered if the fact that they have been so condemned and separated has caused them to feel like “the rules don’t apply to them, so why bother.” Then again, males especially are more sexual creatures, so putting 2 together would appear to cause more sexual temptation to stray. Not to get lesbians totally off the hook, as I have seen a few known to be promiscuous ones in my day. This also makes me wonder if these types have attachment deficits and sex addictions. But that’s a whole other story. Despite R6’s being a reality, it should be noted that old studies on the promiscuity of homosexuals have plagued the gay community for decades. These old studies took their sample population exclusively from gay bath houses, which of course would show massive amounts of promiscuity to anyone who would attend such a place. When falsely applied to all homosexuals, it appeared that many have hundreds if not thousands of sexual partners. This of course does not represent the majority gay population. Since the emergence of the AIDS epidemic, many have steered clear from such practices and those that continue seem to have a sexual addiction.

      Lastly, the R1 “recreational” seems to be seen a lot more in recent times, perhaps due to the media? This would be the only category that I would say could have a matter of choice involved, as it does seem experimental out of curiosity or out of other unrelated intentions. Those in this category might call themselves “bi curious.” It seems that many in this category are heterosexual females who like to kiss girls in front of guys to make the guys excited or jealous. Those who consider themselves truly homosexual tend to stay clear of these types, hence the common speculation in the gay community towards bisexuals being R1’s or true bisexuals. It is surprising how many gays will not even consider dating a bisexual because of their suspicions of R1 intentions.

      So if we look at the 7 R’s overall, it would seem that the ones who are loosely publicly related under the homosexual label, but only indulge in “homosexual acts,” are the R1 and R7. Those who are intrenched as a part of their identity are more the R4, R 5 and R6. But as you said, the only that seem to have an ability to be aligned with the Christian lifestyle are moreso the R4 and R5… I would have to say that out of all the people I personally know in the multi-sexual community, most are R5 and few in R4. I have come across some of the others, but we really don’t find anything much in common in values, so perhaps this is why.

      4.) Sexual orientation “Houdini act”

      Now to the serious topic of sexual orientation change. You stated:
      “My own position is that a deep routed orientation can NEVER alter without any direct intervention from God, (Zechariah 4:6). By and large psychiatrists are correct when they admit their techniques don’t work but if, in his inscrutable wisdom God wishes to switch a particular orientation why not? There’s a risk of underestimating His capacity to work miracles in order to show His Sovereign grace.”

      My reaction is this… I have a very strong faith that Yahweh heals and modern day miracles are seen on a daily basis through the power of the name of Yeshua. I have no doubt in my mind that if Yahweh wishes for an orientation to change from homosexual to heterosexual, than it will be done… The interesting fact remains that this does not seem to be something that Yahweh has chosen to do, as there are thousands (if not millions) who have prayed for it and He appears to remain silent on the issue. It would seem that if it were something in need of changing, we would see more cases of change. I have done extensive study into this topic, interviewed the top leading Christian reparative therapists and have read the body of scientific research on sexual orientation change efforts (which was graciously provided to me by the co-partner of the inventor of reparative therapy.) Nearly all in the research come from a Christian-therapeutic mode of treatment, and it appears that intensive prayer was involved with nearly 100% of all attempts, hence, God was petitioned to bring forth a miracle of orientation change alongside with the actions involved in the treatment plan. Within the invalidated studies that appeared to show sexual orientation change had occurred, the verbiage was clearly masked with deception. I will get into that a bit later.

      If we look at what sexual orientation encompasses, we know that it’s key factor in homosexuality is an exclusive attraction to the same gender and heterosexuality an exclusive attraction to the opposite gender. For one to truly change from homosexual to heterosexual, we would expect for a person to go from exclusive same-sex attractions to exclusive opposite-sex attractions. This has yet to be documented… The closest we see are bisexuals (who had previous mild opposite sex attractions with their stronger same-sex attractions) prohibiting themselves from being in a romantic relationship with the same gender. But in these cases, they all still admit to having ongoing same-sex attractions. So no internal change took place, only a behavioral change. Another aspect that I see involved in these “change” cases are those who were repeatedly sexually abused as children. This can confuse a child I am sure… I can imagine that a heterosexual child who was subjected to child abuse could become confused to developing a distorted attraction to the same gender, but later work through their child abuse trauma and feel a stronger attraction to the opposite sex, as originally intended for them. But even in these cases we see continued attractions to the same-gender on some level. Even the former Exodus International, the biggest “ex-gay” Christian ministry in the world, spoke out against their sexual orientation change efforts in that they were harmful and not helpful. They chose to close down their ministry because they knew they were giving false hope to people after years of seeing these efforts fail.

      The semantics behind “ex-gay” are deceiving in that all of these groups define “gay” or “homosexual” as a behavior rather than orientation. One can stop a behavior, but this does not make them stop being gay. So anyone of these groups that say “I am a former homosexual” or “I am an ex-gay” know full well that this just means “I’m not having gay sex.” Yet to the world unaware, it makes it appear that they have transformed in orientation, when all that’s taken place is a rejection of expressing their attraction in a physical manner. These are simply R3’s who have renounced the association to their orientation by verbally denying it and rejecting its label. Yet if they continue in same-sex attraction, by definition, they are still gay.

      As far as the scientific studies that have been invalidated, we can see that their requirements for “successful change” are defined in ways that do not prove any transformation of sexual orientation at all. If someone has just a minimal reduction in the occurrence of same-sex attraction, yet still has no emergence of heterosexual attraction, they are considered as a case of successful change due to the minimal reduction. When reading these types of studies, it becomes obvious why they have been deemed invalidated by all of the reputable psychological associations.

      Secondly, the possibility of error involved in self-reporting can be highly unreliable, especially in a population which desperately want to believe that they are changing. Many in such studies have come forward after the fact and admitted that they falsely reported change simply because they mistakingly believed that it would happen in the future, but never came to pass. Even more invalid are the studies based solely on the reparative psychologist’s observations. All can relate on some level to the temptation to boast about the success rates of something we are personally involved in, especially when it is our life’s work. It would be a personal devastation to be confronted with the fact that all of our efforts were for nothing. I am good friends with a Christian gay man who went through reparative therapy and openly told his therapist that he had changed from gay to straight, simply because he didn’t want the therapist to feel bad.

      Even to those that marry a heterosexual partner, this does not make them transformed to a heterosexual, but rather engaging in heterosexual behavior. There is a big difference. So the big question becomes, why doesn’t God seem to change homosexuals into heterosexuals? Is this a big hint that it’s something that isn’t required to be changed? If that is the reason (we don’t really know), then it gives more credence to the creationist view of sexuality. If God created us this way for a purpose, than it would make sense that He would refuse to alter it. Think of this… If just one gay person truly became straight, then they might bare a child. That child with its offspring could change the bloodline of many and affect the corse of the future. If that gay person remained gay (and didn’t chose to artificially bare a child), then the world is different than if they had changed. The ramifications of changing could make a huge impact on the world and bloodlines and people. I feel that sometimes gays are called into a heterosexual union (despite their lack of attraction) in order that a child be born. Who are we to say that this child couldn’t further a bloodline that contained a person who finds the cure for cancer or something greater? Yahweh knows the future and knows what must happen by His Will. I have a feeling He has it all worked out for a purpose, wether it be from the creation or the fall.

      5.) Anatomy of creation or fallen mutation?

      It should be acknowledged that although creation theology on gay issues are difficult to accept from a Biblical reference, it must not be kept out of the realm of possibility. I know you have stated that you have difficultly accepting that God would make someone this way for His good pleasure. Yet we see variation in His creation everywhere we look. If we condemn all acts contrary to the natural procreative heterosexual union, than we would expect celibacy to be condemned because it also rebels against the design for male-female procreation and if all were celibate, the human race would die out. Despite this, celibacy for the Kingdom is commended as a blessing in Scripture, especially under the New Covenant. In the same way, non-procreative acts of bonding between those in a God-centered, loving, monogamous, life-long covenant should not be condemned if the fruits that are produced from such a union exalt the redemptive grace of Christ for the Kingdom.

      Just because the Bible doesn’t mention a particular attribute doesn’t prove it’s in the “fallen nature” category. Yet without absolute proof, it is best to follow your outline for focusing on redemption. In either case, one cannot “lose” with what you have proposed because it has acknowledged there is an issue (wether it be negative or just out of the ordinary) and the guidance of God on how to manage the issue properly is without error. It is then up to the person to be guided either way on how to proceed. If they feel convicted to celibacy, they should be celibate. If they feel honest to God freedom under the grace of Christ’s redemption to make a Christ-centered lifelong covenant with the same gender, than they should not be hindered. Lastly, if they feel absolutely called to be into a heterosexual marriage despite their lack of romantic capability, they shows do so and be fully committed and honest. All of these options should be prayerfully considered without any impulsivity.

      Perhaps the biggest natural proof against homosexuality without reading Scripture is our physical anatomy. In the sexual sense, it is obvious that a male and female fit for procreation. But was this the only thing that we were made for? I have heard the basic “peg in the hole” argument many times. By creation, our bodies as male and female are different, yet complimentary. Now here is where things get graphic and I shutter with embarrassment… Call me a prude, but these things must be said in order to really examine them, so I will do it as politely and scientifically as possible. It seems that God created sex to be pleasurable and could have very well created us without the ability for any physically enjoyable “climax.” It of course provides an incentive for procreation, but I’m sure you can agree that it is something done between married couples for reasons aside from child bearing (much more often than not.) The pleasure of sex can be misused outside of the marriage covenant of course, but God designed this climax to be achievable between the two who are joined together in a marriage. It creates a physical bonding that compliments and strengthens the emotional bonding between the married couple.

      Here is where things get graphic. It is often said that men have an external mode of climax (penis) and women have an internal mode of climax (g-spot inside vagina). What becomes overlooked is that men also have an internal mode of climax and women also have an external mode of climax. For males, the internal mode is the prostate gland (only accessible inside the anus) which creates a climax, unlike females who have been created without any touch receptors for pleasure inside the anus. Female’s external mode is, of course, the clitoris. So, strangely, God created both the male and female anatomy with the ability for an external and internal mode of sexual bonding. Now I am certainly NOT proposing that “if it feels good, it’s good and right.” I’m simply stating that it is curious that our bodies were created this way when He could have easily made these two apposing organs void of receptors for stimulation to encourage heterosexuality. So when observing the biology of the body, the homosexual couple is not physically incompatible aside from the infertility of the bonding act. This demonstrates that there is a possibility that God designed the body for both heterosexual and homosexual sexual bonding.

      Even if it becomes scientific proof that homosexuality is something pre-determined in the womb, many could still argue that we are “born into sin.” Yet there lies a difference between sin actions and involuntary unchangeable innate characteristics. Not to say that these involuntary unchangeable innate characteristics can’t have a negative impact. So if homosexuality is a result of the fall (despite not being a choice) and is not a result of intentional creation, than does this mean that God rejects that person as unredeemable? I believe that Yahweh has compassion on all of us and He is not a God of exclusion. He shows great love and compassion to the oppressed and disabled and all of those who seek His face with genuine longing to please Him. So if this is a distortion of God’s perfect design caused by the fall, than I can’t imagine that He would reject us for being imperfect, as we are all imperfect apart from Him.

      The fact remains that in the original creation, Yahweh allowed for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to be in the Garden of Eden. He could have very well chosen to prohibit it from ever being. From the beginning, we as a human race were given free will. Being an all knowing God, He knew Adam and Eve would fall into sin and He allowed it to happen, despite their disobedience grieving Him. I believe this was for the reason that He did not simply create us like robots to serve Him as Master without a choice. The choice of free will leads to true love. He wants us to genuinely love Him and this is only possible through choice of the contrary. He shows His great glory through our weaknesses and His love towards us is shown all the more through His grace despite our unworthiness. As we know, it is easy to love the lovable, but that much more great to love the despised. It all leads back to redemption and showing how His love is greater than all. God IS perfect Holiness and perfect Love, and with that said, love shows holiness and holiness shows love.

      6.) Sodom & Give-Me-More-Of….

      In regards to our differing approaches to Genesis 19 and subsequent passages, I do believe that both apply. ‘Both’ meaning that it is wise to consider the historical and linguistic context of the authorship AND see how the verse(s) can apply to us in the modern day. The Bible is a ‘living book’ in that it relates to mankind throughout all time without barriers. We can relate in ways to passages that did not state the exact to the original audience. So the thought that Sodom can show how sexual perversion can overtake oneself to the point of not seeing “the door” (I like this connection) to Salvation is HIGHLY relevant. Yet a flaw does remain with this approach to relating something of today to something of millennia passed…. Not in the way that you described at all, as I agree with your statements…. But when it involves pointing the finger and making generalizations about a minority population and applying it to all the minority as one category of damned individuals. It is fundamentalist heterosexuals who claim that homosexuality in Sodom was the only reason for its destruction, consequently it condemns all of modern homosexuality and any modern person or nation that accepts this is also damned for God’s destruction. This “logic” does not apply when looking at the context. This event mentioned in Sodom took place in the wake of God already planning to destroy Sodom, as the angels came to rescue the one Godly family of Lot. But despite this, we can learn a lot from Sodom, and even from the own lips of God, as He says “Thus saith Yahweh- Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abomination before me. So I removed them when I saw it.” (Ezekiel 16:49, 50.)

      Along with applying sexual depravity (and ESPECIALLY sexual violence and exploitation), this verse describing the reason for Sodom’s guiltiness can easily be applied to the masses living in countries such as the United States. Many citizens are prideful and keep their abundant recourses to themselves and turn their back on their poor and needy neighbors. It is all about “give ME MORE of….” and not about giving. We are warned in Scripture that an increase of lawlessness in the end times is a result of the love of many growing cold. I see many homeless on the street and it is astounding how many hearts are cold to them. At my church, there was a heterosexual homeless man who offered to help my pastors carry in some boxes one night. They began talking and after many months of correspondence, he has become a regular at our church for the past few years. He was shunned away from several other churches he attempted to attend simply due to the fact that he was homeless which “made people uncomfortable.” Yet ironically, it just happened to be our church with nearly all gay and lesbian followers who accepted him in with open arms and clothed him and fed him and gave him a warm place to sleep. He grew up with a hatred towards gays and homosexuality and believed without any doubt that we were damned to hell. But the fruits of the Holy Spirit were so evident in our congregation that it brought him into more awe and reverence of God’s great mercy for saving even us. His heart has softened and he shows great love to all he comes in contact and has a true heart of a servant. We love him like family and do all we can to help and he can feel the love of God shining through us towards him. I remember the first time he attended our Bible study, people were giving hugs at the end and I noticed him in the corner alone humbly smiling and looking downward. I went up and wrapped my arms around him and he seemed taken aback, but filled with joy and hugged me back. We have been great friends ever sense and he is very wise in Scriptural knowledge. So those who rejected him are truly the ones missing out.

      If we were going to apply condemnation of modern gays connected to Sodom at all, I believe that PRIDE would be the fault. Martyr 2 and I have never engaged in a “gay pride” event and feel quite repulsed by it. After all, wasn’t it the pride of Lucifer that overtook him to strive to be higher than Yahweh? Ironically, we were recently invited to a pride event by a very nice couple and gave a tentative response only for the fact that we were considering going so that we could be a loving Christian witness to the picketers and show others in the multi-sexual community that one can be gay and Christian. I’m not sure we are up for the task (emotionally or financially), but keep it in prayer as a consideration. Either way, you won’t see us marching down the lane holding signs of gay pride. We would only consider going (as a spectator) as to be fully led by God as His best witnesses to show Christ’s redemption.

      7.) Personal and closing thoughts

      I must say on a personal note that 2/3’s of my life since adolescence have been filled with a battle in regards to homosexuality and my Spiritual connection. I was convinced of the inherent sinfulness of homosexuality for many years and tried desperately to rid myself of this affection. I spent thousands of hours in prayer and asked God to remove it. I even went into reparative therapy with a Christian therapist and worked diligently to conform to heterosexual norms which never felt natural (for me.) I finally came to a point of surrender and despair and felt there was no hope for me and I felt damned to eternal burning torment. Conservatives place a black and white choice between Christian faith and homosexuality. They say “you have to CHOOSE between being a Christian or being gay. So either be a Christian or fully embrace the ‘gay community,’ but never mix the two because it is an impossible contradiction.” This choice to choose between the two sends many on a path to rejecting God after thousands of failed attempts and seemingly unanswered prayers to remove the love we have in our hearts for a longing bond of affection with the same gender. The lack of transformation in the vast majority of cases can interpreted as being a silence from God because we are already damned. This takes out the “whosoever” in John 3:16. Many Western conservatives put an asterisk by this verse and the group excluded is always homosexuals. Yet the lack of transformation could be a loud and clear answer that there is nothing distorted to be fixed. Either way, it appears that God is able to use us as Christians for His Will and purpose, and His glory is seen through the sanctification of that which was considered unclean before the power of redemption conquered the sting of sin.

      It took much study into the Word and many hours in prayer for me to ever come to the conclusion that God had allowed this affection in me to form a closer bond with Him and rely on Him that much more than if I hadn’t had this struggle. It certainly wasn’t an overnight revelation, but the more He revealed to me in His Holy wisdom, the more my faith grew in Him and the faith that makes me know without a doubt that my union with my spouse is sanctified through Him. It is ironic that the revelation came at a time when I re-met my spouse (I say “re-met” because we first met at our Christian elementary school and then again as adults.) I feel that the peace of God on this issue was only reserved at the proper time so that my bonding to her could be made without the self-sabotage of guilt.

      I do fully recognize my sinfulness as a fallen creature, but know that I have been made clean by the Second Adam. This is where Romans 14 comes in so strongly in my life, as “nothing in itself is unclean, but it is unclean for the person who thinks its unclean.” This is not just applied to food or religious holidays, as Acts 10 draws the relationship between foods as a symbol for people and not regarding them as unclean when God has sanctified them. We are to be “fully convinced in our own minds.” After years of being told to the contrary, I am fully convinced that my union is not unholy, as it has been sanctified and justified by the blood of our one and only Messiah. One must remember that a heterosexual marriage is not holy in and of itself, as it is the sanctification of the Christ-centered covenant that makes it a holy union unto God. God does not show judgment towards those who commit in the sanctified marital covenant, but rather those who defile the covenant by breaking it and those who defile their body outside of a marital covenant. So one should not be offended to ask God to sanctify their union, wether it be same-sex or opposite-sex. God shows blessings to those that seek to honor Him within their union.

      So overall, as I’ve already said, I believe that your proposal is an ideal middle ground and encompasses the truth that builds a bridge between the black and white of fundamentalist and liberal doctrines. As for those who see it as a back-door to compromise or fundamentalism, they must realize that we all have one thing in common. All are sinful by nature and all are condemned apart from the redeeming blood of Yeshua Ha-Mashiach that makes eternal union with Yahweh a reality. My gratitude of His redemption brings me to tears, that even I could be acceptable in His sight, only by His grace which shows His ultimate love. Not only that, but the fact that I have been given the opportunity to know Him right here and now in this fallen world is beyond a blessing! The struggles of this world are so temporary and a lifetime in this fallen world is but a speck of dust in the universe of time. One day, our earthly concerns will be but a distant memory of another life, if at all. No more pain. No more sickness. No more heartache. No more depravity. No more violence. No more malice. No more abuse. No more hatred. No more death. Oh how I long for that glorious beginning day of transformation to be in the Mighty presence of our Sovereign Adonai Elohim Yahweh!

      “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day…It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. TRULY, TRULY, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” -John 6:37-40, 45-51

      ….I believe the TRUTH! 🙂 Amen!

      Thank you again, Raymond, for your life saving words. Yahweh will bless you abundantly!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti
      p.s. How is your mother doing?

      • midrashcreed says:

        Thank you for your very detailed and thought provoking response. I plan to mull over your reply during my next retreat details of which will be found in another post. My mother has perked up again. This is because last Saturday I managed with the help of my eldest son to find on Ancestry.com a long lost Jewish Ancestor who lived from 1794 until 1860. Even more amazing I managed to obtain his witness statement in an old Bailey trial of 1826. he had been mugged by two London East End ‘nasties’ who were hung as a result. (They didn’t mess around in those days.) To hear your ancestor in their own words and to be able to form an estimate of their character was a truly amazing experience. I’m seeing my mother tomorrow with the transcripts, a map of Bethall Green London and baptismal records as she was the person who first gave us this lead. Another person exploring this line was also indebted to her. Hence, at the age of 90 my mother feels thoroughly vindicated. Other pieces of information she had given us were also confirmed. I’ve told her to have no more falls because as I said to her, ‘I want you to hear about your ancestors not join them. So don’t you dare die on me otherwise I’ll kill you!’ Hopefully, she’ll obey my orders. my mother has more drama to keep her happy!

        This discovery happened at a time when three of my younger sons friends were staying over. In conversation one of them from Wales who’s High Church Anglican admitted to battling with ‘H’ tendencies but wouldn’t act on them. (Aged 22, he’s very much Side B.) Last Sunday morning as he took a shower I heard him loudly singing hymns in Welsh! Things have now reached the stage where my son is bringing multi-sexuals home with him to sing Welsh Hymns in our bathroom. Mind you I quite appreciated the way he said to my younger son what a wonderful father he had. I then added to his discomfiture by remarking how much he was like me. My younger son’s face went from a crimson red to a whiter shade of pale. being compared to his father was the last thing he would like! Whilst this was happening i just sat there with a grinning.

  17. midrashcreed says:

    Thank you for your very helpful and gracious post. I will reply to the points raised in it once the rest of your reply comes through. Please pray for my mother as she’s in hospital with a bladder infection. Also had a fall and gashed her head. However, she’s especially upset that the lino of her kitchen has had to be torn up because of the burst water pipe I mentioned previously. All these mishaps have been a severe ordeal for a ninety year old. Thankfully my wife was at hands to deal with this crisis otherwise it could have been far worse. Both my mother and sister are full of praises for Martyr who came back home yesterday thoroughly exhausted and was in bed by 9.15PM. Wasn’t to pleased this morning when our cat also bit her. He seems very unimpressed by his Californian Contacts and just yawned when I mentioned them. We don’t call him ‘grumpy puss’ for nothing. Yesterday my eldest son came round and thinks that I should go on to GCN. His judgement is normally very shrewd but I’ll bide my time for now. There’s enough to be dealing with at present.

    There is no need to reply to this mail. Just pray, especially that my mother will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus. That’s the most important thing!

    • Our prayers are strongly with your mother! Please keep us updated!

    • Hello dear Raymond!
      I just wanted you to know that I am still working on your reply…. I have been unusually busy and prayerfully take my time in all of my replies. It’s a shame I can’t take this up as a full time job, as I thrive on such discussion. 😉 We especially wanted to know how your mother is doing and we have been praying for you and your dear family. I just wanted to say what a refreshing thing it is to have your contact. It is truly a blessing to us especially amongst the discouraging words of others lately. We keep you in our heart and prayers.
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

  18. midrashcreed says:

    I visited my mother in hospital yesterday and told her that you were both praying for her. her response was to give a loud chuckle and exclaim, “well that should see me on my way.” Voila! A dose of my mother’s tactful sensitivity. There is is talk about sending her to rehabilitation but hospital bureaucracy has as usual, left a cloud of uncertainty. Her legs have all but gone now and even using a Zimmer Frame is proving to be almost impossible. However, the nurses have taken to her and that is good news. She thinks your kindness is “very nice” and I’m glad that my mother has lived long enough to be a source of blessing to you and Martyr 2. What you both need to do is pray for her salvation for on spiritual matters she’s not so much hostile but clueless. Partly this comes from having a militantly atheist mother but if being shot at by a German aircraft and nearly being blown up during the London Blitz didn’t awaken spiritual sensitivities I don’t know what will. She just seems utterly impervious. What is required is a major move of the Holy Spirit in her heart and mind. Currently, there are strong signs of general grace in terms of the quality of care she’s been given and the relationship she enjoys but no sign of the special grace that leads to salvation. Please also pray for her continued mental clarity as well. We want her mind to hold up until the very end.

    As I left the hospital last night the following poem entered my mind. Entitled ‘No More’ it reads: –

    There will come a time
    When
    There will be
    No more banter
    No more chatter
    No more visits
    For your mother will in this world be
    No more
    It will be a time to mourn
    But also
    A time to be thankful
    That you parted as friends
    With old disputes long forgotten

    The problem with my mother is she knows I’ve written nice poems about her and is eager to hear them; but they’re all about her death which would make it awkward. However, she has lived to see me to begin to become successful in both the literary and professional areas and that’s been important for both of us. She likes to show me of as the trophy successful son both to staff and other patients. (She takes credit for every success in our family. When I once challenged her on this she tutted and said, “Well! I had you all, didn’t I!” She also won the second World War by the way, but that’s a big state secret!)

    On a less positive note, Michael brown is making his presence in the UK with a conservative Anglican website promoting his book through reviews and interviews. Gagnon is speaking at conferences in Belfast and London. At least Gagnon has an intellect I can respect, but Brown will be a disaster for the conservative cause. They need him as much as a hole in the head.

    The problem with the conservative Christian stance on homosexuality is its logical inconsistency. Religious conservatives rightly stress that all people are helpless sinners who need divine grace before they can even begin to make a right choice. Yet when it comes to homosexuality they switch track and argue that it’s a lifestyle choice we can snap out of (albeit with some struggle). The reality is that the ‘lifetime orientation’ view of homosexuality is far more in accord with traditional conservative teaching on original sin and the fall which in Luther’s words led to ‘the bondage of the will.’ Over this matter, ‘Gay’ Christians are far closer to the teachings of reformers like Luther and Calvin then many of their so called followers.

    It’s perhaps rare for someone to attack the anti-Gay Christian conservatives for not being conservative enough on the stance they take towards homosexuality, but that’s the only conclusion I can draw from my extensive study of the issue in which I’ve looked closely at every viewpoint.

    One conservative lesbian joke I did like went like this: –
    “How many lesbians does it take to change a light bulb?”
    ” Five, one to change it and four to blog about it!”
    Earlier I would have viewed this joke as being crudely stereotypical but your blog does seem to confirm it rather well! By the way in our household it takes only one person to change a light bulb and that is Martyr 1. Inherited clumsiness prevents me from doing that task (at least that’s what I tell her).

    My engagement with the multi-sexual area is already beginning to inspire the muse in me. Here’s the latest offering I’ve just written this morning. Still in rough form, it’s entitled ‘Outcast People.’

    To an outcast people I’ve been sent
    An outcast among outcasts
    Hurled
    Flung
    Thrown
    Like an Olympic javelin
    Rushing through the air
    To land squarely on its target

    A target consisting of a
    Despised and rejected people
    Scorned as ‘accursed’ by the respectable
    Rejected as ‘filthy’ by the ‘righteous’
    In the Church

    Truly they would be a people who would be without hope
    But for the grace of God
    Given through the blood sacrifice of Jesus
    it was He who converted
    Wrath into love
    Despair into hope and
    Strife into peace
    And bestowed eternal life on all those
    Who believed in Him

    Where there was once
    Condemnation there is now redemption
    Where there was once
    Damnation there is now salvation
    Where there was once
    Hell there can now be Heaven
    What a wonderful work this is
    Let us give glory to God
    All praise be to His name

    Dear Lord, how can I refuse to show grace
    When I’ve been so often blessed with it
    In my own life
    In response all I can say is
    “‘Abba Father,’ here I am send me!
    Send me to those that many in the Church label as ‘outcasts'”‘

    Feel free to take your time before replying. I’m in no hurry as it’s quality I’m looking for. Like you I thrive on discussion. Currently, I’m more inclined to link up with GCN, but the time has to be right and I want to have a prayer retreat first before inflicting them with my presence. I also feel I have my hands full with both you and Martyr 2. (Give her our regards by the way.) What a friendship appears to be developing between us. Neither Martyr 1 nor I would have thought this possible a few weeks ago.

    • Raymond!
      I have made a costly mistake in downloading a new WordPress App for my phone and deciding to reply to you on there… This was done a week ago, but now as I see, it neither sent nor saved my draft! So I must let you know, I have not ignored you or forgotten about you… Every day our prayers are with you and your family and especially your mothers salvation! Please let me know her condition… It has also been a difficult week for us. Not as serious as your mother of course, but our sweet 3-legged cat fell quite ill and decided not to consume any food for nearly the whole week. Unlike most cats, she won’t even go near tuna or chicken, or the other foods we could usually bribe our other felines with. Only on one occurrence has she ever shown interest in “human food,” which was a stick of butter we found her licking long ago… So we tried many soft can foods and even putting butter on her hard food, but nothing. After several veterinary visits, the problem was solved. Her gums and teeth were in major pain which caused her not to eat, so she had all but her front fangs extracted several days ago. Now she is ravenously eating her soft food and other than acting a bit loopy from the pain killers, she is back to her old self again. Credit must be given to the miraculous healing power of Yahweh! As the vet informed us that even a few days with less calories can swing a cat into liver failure (something that happened to one of our previous kitties). So as you can imagine, we were very worried for her this week and spent time around the clock trying to get her to eat and caring for her. So thank Yahweh she is healed!!! So with that said, my time has been quite divided between taking care of her and finishing up my last paperwork for work, so I have yet to finish your big reply. I apologize, but will finish it as soon as I’m able… Please let me know how you’re mother is doing and anything else on your mind. You remain closely in our thoughts and prayers!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

  19. midrashcreed says:

    Commiserations for the difficult week you’ve had. It’s not been easy over here. First my mother was out of hospital, then she was back in after another fall, then she was due out last night and then tonight only for us to receive a plaintive phone call from her this morning asking why there was no food in the house and why no one was around. Poor Martyr is staying the night at her place helping to settle her back in and trying to sort out the insurance in connection with the broken water pipe which had also flooded the flat down below. To cap it all my mother’s front door key has gone missing. Anyway she’s back home and once again it seems to have been a case of death looking her in the face and running away screaming. Do please pray for her salvation.

    For myself I’ve had sub-contracting nightmares in trying to upload a copy of ‘The Exit Machine’ onto Smashwords so copies could be downloaded onto various Apps. (I think the task has now just been completed, fingers crossed.) In addition, there’s been an upsurge of rather unpleasant anti-Semitism on another Christian forum I’ve been on. I’d just finished dealing with this particular piece of lunacy then you come with your tales of woe! However given all the above I think it’s been providential that you’ve not been able to send me a reply during the last week. I’ve had so much on including a piece of administrative absurdity in connection my work. Our youngest son has just moved out and left a pile of stuff for us to clear out. I’m glad Martyr is out so I can moan to you instead. When I do this she sometimes calls me a big crybaby. Yesterday afternoon i was so stressed out I took myself of for a swim. Also went for a swim this morning before going out to work.

    I’m very glad however that your cat has pulled through.her illness. It’s upsetting when a much loved pet dies. On the Gay front I’ve been exploring the GCN site. I definitely feel there’s potential for a fruitful participation. But I want to be very sure that it’s right before I go on. Thankfully, I didn’t come across any lunatic anti-Semites.There were no men in white hoods or anything like that, praise the Lord! Your prayers are of course very welcome. Both Martyr 1 and I regard this growing friendship between us as something very precious. Feel free to take another week before sending a reply to my earlier post..

  20. midrashcreed says:

    Just received yet another kick on the posterior with a hobnailed boot concerning getting involved with the GCN. This morning I went to hear a sermon on Colossians 1 given by the sound Baptist Bible Teacher mentioned in an earlier post. Three points he raised really stuck out: –
    1) God call us to dangerous places we’d rather not go to
    2) God’s right to take us out of our comfort zones in order for us to serve him effectively
    3) God’s grace being able to redeem every situation because of Christ’s death
    I was so convicted I’ve asked him to e.mail a copy of his sermon notes. He seemed pleased especially as much of his congregation had slept through his preaching or were otherwise disengaged. The atmosphere in the Church was hot and sticky because of the humid weather.

    On getting involved with the multi-sexual issue the Holy Spirit is really giving me no peace at all. He keeps on giving these hefty kicks, ouch!

  21. midrashcreed says:

    And still the kicks keep on coming and not just through the sermon whose transcript I’ve now read. Tuesday morning an alcoholic tramp and his derelict looking lady friend got abusive because they didn’t have enough bus fare to get them to town. They not only racially abused a Sikh bus driver and West Indian lady sitting opposite him they also started abusing a ginger haired bearded young man with holes in his jeans who had been chatting about his boy friend on the phone. He just smirked as they yelled ‘Poofter’ before getting of. Not very pleasant. Last night Martyr I participated in a thoroughly enjoyable outdoor poetry event held in the yard of our local community table. On the table next to us were a butch and semi-feminine lesbian engaged in intense conversation. However the main ‘kick’ came through a prolonged engagement with a Canadian M to F transgender on a conservative Christian forum. What a wonderful opportunity to share the gospel and use some of the material I’d prepared for you. This personage had been in a Conservative Church for thirty years and knew their bible. The same couldn’t be said for a second M to F Transgender from New Zealand who had such serious mental health issues that no constructive dialogue was possible. They had only come to vent their anger, Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed the exchange with Rita who’s not quite as charming in their argumentativeness as you are Moanti!

    Thankfully, I appear to have seen off the unpleasant right wing traditionalist anti-Semites who infested that forum, (but on another thread). They took exception to my observation that where the ‘Gay’ lobby had only to explain away just one chapter in Paul’s letter to the Romans (Romans 1) they had to explain away three chapters (Romans 9-11). Such people hate it when you compare their bible hermeneutics with the worst excesses of the LGBT Movement. Anti-Semitism is one prejudice I have zero tolerance for. I saw the fruit it bore during my visit to Auschwitz.

    By now, the evidence is pretty overwhelming that the Lord wants me to engage deeply with the multi-sexual Christian Community. This unsought for calling is now coming at me from every direction. From a discussion I had with Martyr 1 this morning, it now seems apparent that the last few months have represented an intensive training course. Indeed, there’s evidence that God was preparing me for this task as far back as my attendance at the Gay Pride March we observed last August. It’s only now I’m starting to become aware of the depth and breadth of this preparation. You and Martyr 2 have played a major role in it and if this call does display good ‘fruit’ you and Martyr 2 deserve to share some of the credit for it.

    I look forward to receiving your long reply when it’s ready. Next Saturday is the 35th wedding anniversary between Martyr and I. (She’s a lucky lady!) We plan to go out for a walk tomorrow in order to celebrate it as on Saturday I’m having to attend a mandatory conference connected to my profession. To be honest we’ve both been suffering from exhaustion and I tend to feel drained by the effects of hay fever. So after months of high pressure work I’m beginning to take things easy. After much frustration, a electronic version of ‘The Exit Machine’ is now out via Smashwords, phew!.

    • Hi Raymond!
      Just a quick note to tell you and Martyr Happy Anniversary!!! 🙂 Thanks for the recent updates! I will get your long reply to you as soon as I can. Many distractions have come in the way, but it will be coming soon enough!
      Your sisters in Christ,
      Moanti & Martyr 2

  22. midrashcreed says:

    And yet still more is happening. Yesterday, in breezy, sunny weather, Martyr and I went for a walk on some moorland. Oddly enough we kept meeting Americans. A mother and her three daughters from Indiana and on the way back from the Moor a party of three Chinese Americans from Utah. This is in spite of the fact that the location was far from the international tourist trail.

    In the afternoon we descended into a nicely tucked away hollow where I’d prayed before on previous retreats. Yes, we did pray for you two and have now commended our prospective involvement with the multi-sexual area into God’s hands. This we felt directed to do by the Holy Spirit. When I got back last night and turned on my PC I found that Rita had responded very well to my Gospel presentation to the point where the offered to give me a big hug (An offer I think I could just about decline.) Represented here was my first positive engagement with someone who was transgender. This has been quite a breakthrough. Once again positive connections are being made in the multi-sexual area.

    Today, following a rather heavy going professional conference (some of which I slept through because of the heat in the room) I purchased s copy of Justin Lees book ‘Unconditional’ for £8.99. (I’ll send him an invoice.) In a few hours I’ve got through 111 pages. Just before I got home I encountered two Mormon Missionaries and a further opportunity to share the Gospel arose. I must say this has been the most fertile period of witnessing to the Gospel since my conversion in 1975. Opportunities to do this are popping up all over the place. Just to think 35 years ago tonight Martyr and I were traveling by train to our honeymoon in London.. Half a lifetime ago, yet so near in my memory.

    I look forward to your reply when it comes.

  23. midrashcreed says:

    In this mail I’ll just share with you what I plan to do over my next retreat which is scheduled to begin next Wednesday, and finish on the morning of Saturday July 26th. On it I plan to take some crucial decisions about the Multi-sexual issue so your prayer support will be valued. I’ve already got through Justin lees ‘Unconditional’ and Darlene Bogles ‘A Christian lesbian Journey’ (I don’t know if she’s an acquaintance of yours.) I found that Lee’s more intellectual approach resonated with me far more then Bogles hyper-emotionalism that was rather a turn off. (But in fairness I was obviously not her intended audience.). I especially appreciated Lee’s personal honesty. Much of his thinking was similar to my own. It made me more inclined to go onto GCN. Now onto an outline of my prayer walk which took place on a certain Moor on Monday 23rd June (my 35th wedding anniversary by date). For reasons of confidentiality a few personal details have been omitted.

    DETAILS OF RETREAT WALK

    VENUE
    A walk to across the Moor to a restaurant Eldwick, Bingley where on a hot day I enjoyed a refreshing cup of tea for £1.99p. I must have gone a total of ten miles and was very sunburnt on the face.

    OUTCOME
    Subjectively, there was a great deal of blessing and peace as I approached the Lord with difficult questions. I also wrote a lot of notes behind Justin Lee’s (2014) book ‘Unconditional: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs-Christians Debate’ published by Hodder ISBN: 978-1-444-74542-9. The eight and a quarter hours spent on the Moor were the longest ever. I must have walked about ten miles. Apart from the odd jogger and walker I was very much alone.

    FOLLOW UP
    Follow up will involve conducting an extensive study of all sides of the multi-sexual issue during my next retreat where an attempt will be made to apply Isaiah 8:20. Any decision to invest more fully in this area will be taken after the retreat following further research into all sides of this issue. In this area, both my wife and I will need to know exactly what we’re doing. (See retreat Plan file 2014b for further details.)

    This walk was one of the most blessed prayer days I’ve ever enjoyed. God was indeed present and having an afternoon doze in front of a rock doing nothing but watch the clouds go by was a wonderfully refreshing. The stress of months of hard work appeared to drop away. Earlier on while seated in the same little hollow where I and my wife had committed the whole multi-sexual issue to the Lord last Friday afternoon, I applied 1 Kings 10:1 and put before the Lord the difficult questions that were already in my mind. These I divided into the following two categories: –

    Category A: General Questions about the Multi-sexual Issue
    1) Whose right on this issue – multi-sexual activists like Justin Lee or anti-Gay activists like activists like Michael brown?
    2) Does the evangelical wing of the Christian multi-sexual movement represent a true work of God or is it a spiritual counterfeit which is possibly designed to ‘soften up’ evangelical Christians for the great delusion Paul mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:11?
    3) What exactly am I dealing with here?
    4) How under God’s grace, should the church address the multi-sexual issue?

    Category B: Questions concerning the involvement of my wife and I in the Multi-Sexual Issue
    1) Is God really leading me to engage with this issue using the strategy that was first drawn up in late April?
    2) Is this call some form of deception from Satan? (If so, it’s by far the cleverest I’ve encountered in my life)
    3) Why have I been enjoying an amazing graciousness and strong sense of rapport with Gay, Lesbian and Transgender people who profess the Christian faith?
    4) If I do engage heavily in this area will it result in the right ‘fruit’ rather than pointless contention?
    5) Should I link up with a certain relevant network?
    6) Am I just acting from self-centred motives such as: –
    6.1 Rebounditus from my great failure with the Church
    6.2 Annoyance with the consistent negativity and blinkered rudeness of Conservative Christians
    6.3 A ‘fleshy’ desire for novelty and stimulation
    6.4 A hunger to have an impact and sell some books
    These possible entry points to deception were confessed and yielded to the Lord. A great deal of purification in my motives took place. Later I prayed, ‘Lord as regard the multi-sexual issue, please show me your truth, Amen’

    Later, seated beside a certain trig point on the crest of the Moor, I was led to intercede for various people and situations. I closed these with the Lord’s Prayer and Grace.

    As I walked over the crest of the Moor the words from 2 Corinthians 12:9a came into mind. The Holy Spirit appeared to be showing me that God’s grace is more than sufficient for Him to show me the truth and ensure that any work I will do in the multi-sexual area will bear much ‘fruit.’ There was a particular need to remain focused on the benefits of Christ’s atonement. It also occurred that God’s grace is more sufficient to redeem my terrible failure in the Church area and all the other problems connected to it.

    Once I prayed in ‘tongues’ and once (on the way back, following my doze beneath the rock) I sang in the spirit. This greatly helped my prayers to flow. I could express what needed to be expressed.

    Overall, this day brought some spiritual refreshment and a great deal of clarification. It was definitely right to take myself away from normal activities.

    PLAN FOR THE MULTI-SEXUAL REVOLUTION RETREAT

    ASSUMPTION
    One key assumption is that no regenerate Christian should attempt to tackle the multi-sexual issue unless they have a clear and unmistakable call from God to do so. To my stunned amazement just such a call emerged in recent months. Indeed, I could be specific about the time it started to emerge. I could truthfully say “On the evening after my daughter’s wedding on Saturday, 12th April 2014 whilst walking across a central station rail bridge, God began to call my wife and I to engage deeply with the multi-sexual Christian community.” That date will be etched into my memory for more reasons than one.

    FOCUS
    This will be upon digesting and taking stock of all the many developments that have happened since Saturday, 12/4/2014.

    PURPOSE
    To prayerfully evaluate and prepare to fulfil a possible call to engage deeply with members of the Christian multi-sexual community (CMC) using the mission paper I’ve already drawn up.

    POLICY
    To let the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth about this matter, (John 16:13)

    AIMS
    These are: –
    1) To redraft and modify my mission paper
    2) To decide once and for all whether this call genuinely emanates from God
    3) To increase my knowledge of multi-sexuality and related issues
    4) To re-orientate my thinking while considering all points of view surrounding this issue
    5) To apply Acts 17:11 by carefully referring to relevant scriptures surrounding this topic
    6) To receive an answer to all the questions that was raised in file 2014RW1

    OBJECTIVES
    By the Saturday, 26th July 2014, I hope to have: –
    1) To read the books of Ruth and Colossians
    2) To reviewed the pro-and anti-Gay hermeneutics of Keith Sharpe and John Dallas
    3) To reviewed the pro-and anti-Gay hermeneutics of Gagnon and Moanti
    4) To redrafted my mission paper so it will be ready to go into typed form
    5) To have prayed for recent multi-sexual contacts
    6) To be ready to join the GCN should that be the right thing to do.

    MEANS
    In order to attain the above aims and objectives the means that will be adopted on this retreat include: –
    1) Comparing, contrasting and where possible reconciling different viewpoints
    2) Listing areas of agreement and disagreement with the CMC

    CONCLUDING COMMENTS
    The main theme of this retreat appears to be the need to trust God’s grace in order to get ready to engage deeply with the CMC. It should mark a climax of all the preparations that have occurred since 12th April.

    Please note that over this retreat period I will review your points very carefully and then make a reply which will possibly be sent to you possibly in early August. As you can see I have some very crucial decisions to make and i want to get things 100% right both for my sake and that of Martyr 1 and the wider Multi-sexual Christian Community. Everything will be under review.

    Oh one last point. Do be VERY careful about attending a pride march. At the Manchester Pride my wife and I attended last August we saw sights (including bondage fetishists parading behind an effigy of Satan) that weren’t exactly edifying. There were some very bad spiritual influences present. You just have to look at the Youtube video to see evidence of this. (Just Google Manchester Gay Pride March 2013, youtube.) Hopefully however,you won’t be at risk of being mobbed by teenage lesbians the way I was! (Well at least I hope not!)

    • Hi Raymond,
      Thank you for your response and outlining your recent prayer retreats. I am eager to see how God responds to your questions and will pray diligently that you are not deceived by anything in your quest. I feel so strongly that you have brought a solid Biblical doctrine to the Christian multi-sexual community that edifies the Son of God like no other doctrine has thus far. Despite what you feel called to do going forward, I will not forget your words and feel the Holy Spirit moving in your revelations.

      I can imagine that many lives could be touched by your outlook. Perhaps one of the biggest hindrances as far as the reception of your message being received could be what you said about people assuming it is a back door to compromise or back door to fundamentalism. It is ironic how this could potentially fit for both. I feel that The Lord will give you the tools going forward to make this distinguishable so it does not cause an issue. With everything, there will be some degree of controversy. But I feel your doctrine is a bridge between the two and that bridge is clearly the cross, so who can argue with that? To the fundamentalists that cry out that it’s a compromise, I feel they must be confronted with their own Pharsee-like self-righteousness, and they need to have a realization that they themselves are not recognizing the magnitude of the power of the blood of Christ. Their seclusion of multi-sexuals from the power of the blood of Christ is an insult to the forgiveness of their own sins. As for the more liberal believer on this issue, they must see the redemption as a gift of God’s grace. Their liberty to be in a same-gender union should be sanctified just as the heterosexual union should be sanctified. As I’ve said, wether it be from creation or the fall, each human should recognize the redeeming power of Christ as well as give glory for the blessings He has bestowed on us.

      Despite these things, I must be honest in saying that through everything I have gone through, I have come to a place of absolute peace and do not feel that God sees my union as a sin. Am I in error? (I feel I ask this to the humans.) Even sense your post on these things, I have humbly come to God in prayerful confession and asked Him to show me my sins, provide a remedy and forgive my sins. My answer to the latter is that He already has 2,000 years ago. As far as the first request, I am guilty as all humans of certain things and had my convictions of what to alter shown to me. His remedy for my problems was shown plainly to me and I rely on His strength to fulfill it. But the matter of my sexual orientation and my union to Martyr 2 is not and has not been part of this list of changes to better exalt Him. I ask for a revealing of these things, but I get the answer, “haven’t I already shown you?” This is relevant in that the past years have been intensive in revealing the alternate translation to Scripture from its ancient roots (not just regarding the topic of homosexuality, but many other revelations that have provided to show truth.)

      But with this, the problem remains the trouble with true repentance. To fundamentalists, I am seen as an unrepentant sinner if I repeatedly continue to engage in acts that are sinful. I know we are all sinful creatures and need Christ’s redemption. But for the one who defiantly rebels against God, this is inconsistent from a true relationship with Him, yet I know 100% that I have it. So the question becomes, why do I feel that my relationship with Martyr 2 is blessed and a joy to God if it is a rebellious sin? The only thing I can fathom to this fact is that He has sanctified us because we truly have put Him at the center of our union and our whole relationship is based on communing together in worship and growing together with our relationship to Him. Yet even when we do have any intimate moments, it does not feel sinful. I am almost looking for it to feel this way now just to be sure I am not in error, but it’s not felt sinful and in fact directly the opposite.

      I wish never to be in deception and my greatest desire is to increase in my bond with Him on this earth and then be raised on the last day to eternal life with Him. I want nothing to get in the way of that. So although the Scriptures are not 100% clear on this issue, the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives as lesbians must say something. My sense is that God deals with us individually. He has our role for each of us, and for some it’s a relationship, others celibacy, and others a heterosexual marriage. Despite this, I still feel it is only through His redemption that we as a human race are saved, and we are all a lot more equal in this fact than people give credit. I know I am guilty as a sinner, but regarding this issue, I feel blessed to have the relationship that I do and feel the great good that has come from it in both of our lives. We have grown Spiritually in this journey together more than all the years in our life previous to our union. Yahweh has revealed Himself to us in downright miraculous ways and our gifts have strengthened through our union. So does this show that homosexuality is not a sin after all? I can’t say for sure, but I know the evidence of our lives and the evidence of the linguistic and culturally-based interpretation of Scripture could show that we fit in somewhere and it doesn’t always have to be bad. Either way, I praise God for sending His Son and know that His redeeming blood is the only reason for my relationship with Him in the first place. As apart from Him, I can do nothing.

      This verse comes to mind: “Everything is lawful,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is lawful,” but not everything builds others up.” (1 Corinthians 10:23.) One must ask The Lord, ‘what is profitable for me to further the works of your Kingdom so that glory may be brought to your Name? We know that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH.” (1 Timothy 2:4). How we act around potential believers is of divine importance. We must really question what has given Jesus a bad name from the works of Christians through the view of potential believers. Is it the homosexuals who have accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior? Or is it the Christians who have secluded homosexuals (or any group) from accepting Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior? I can say from personal experience that the number one thing that has made potential believers recoil from joining the faith is the attitude of self-righteous seclusion. Look back 2,000 years and the same rings true. Even Jesus Himself repetitively condemns the Pharisees for these self-righteous actions, yet always showed mercy to the ones seen as outcasts and despised.

      I am not familiar with Darlene Bogles and will have to look her up. I have read Justin Lee’s book “Unconditional” which interestingly enough, is titled as “Torn” in the United States (but is the same book.) I feel that Justin is very honest and has been a great asset to the gay Christian community and has a heart to “reach across the isle” towards both the Side A and Side B doctrines as well as speaking to those who are against homosexuality. The only place in which I feel he causes a lack of growth is in his recoil to stand up for Side A doctrines within a debate setting. He takes the opposing side’s views into so much consideration that he often fails to state thought provoking hermeneutics that could strike them to ponder a different view. However, he now has a new DVD available that outlines his interpretation of homosexuality and the Bible which hopefully goes over this in more detail, but I have yet to purchase this.

      I recently saw an interview with Matthew Vines (a young Christian gay man who’s video went “viral” on Youtube) and the famous Michael Brown. Sadly, the interview was on a conservative radio station that often cut off Vines which prevented him from giving an informative response. But Brown’s main accusation was that gay Christians didn’t accept the inherency of Scripture and accused them of stating that Jesus Himself ‘didn’t understand human sexuality,’ hence claiming that we believe ‘God didn’t understand, but we understand.’ This is an offensive claim, as I have heard no gay Christian say such a thing. Just because committed same-gender relationships were not mentioned in Scripture does not mean that we claim that Jesus didn’t understand or have knowledge of them. It was simply not something mentioned in Scripture. God has knowledge of all things and I believe the words of Scripture offer inherent truths for all generations. It just appears that what the fundamentalist believer sees as all of homosexuality is seen by the Side-A gay Christian as specific to other practices, specifically:
      -idol worship sex rituals (modern application: idolatry, adultery, promiscuity, lust)
      -gang-rape (modern application: rape, coerced sex, violence, abuse)
      -prostitution (modern application: promiscuity, lust, adultery)
      -child sex slavery (modern application: pedophilia, child abuse.)
      The fundamentalist condemns consensual love in a monogamous commitment, whereas the Side-A gay Christian condemns sexual acts outside of a monogamous commitment which are inherently harmful to self and others. When we see blatant sin as a whole in Scripture, the side-A gay Christian tends to see moral sin in the full Biblical context as something that causes harm to some degree (towards God, self, and others.) But fundamentalist ignore this vital attribute of sin and see harmless homosexual life-long pairings as an exception to the otherwise harmful nature of sin.

      If we are going to look for harm, I feel that the central harm in a God-centered life-long monogamous same-gender union is the harm inflicted by those who don’t accept it. The worst of all harm in this is the family who rejects their child for being gay. But should we then blame the gayness for the cause of the harm? This can’t be, as their are many heterosexual couples in which the family of one (or both) reject the relationship but this does not make the couple inherently at fault. So in these cases it seems best to apply Romans 14 and not act in a way which would offend. For many, this means concealing affection and/or discussion of the relationship as not to bother the one it offends and not act crudely by ‘throwing it into people’s faces.’ We seek to edify each other and not cause strife.

      As far as reviewing the hermeneutics proposed by different authors (including myself), I would have to personally attest to rejecting some that I feel are either a stretch or downright bogus. Like the entire Christian community, the multi-sexual Christian community has many variations in its thought. But one throughout all remains the same, which is the main message of Scripture in that Jesus is the Son of God that washes away the sins of those who believe on Him.

      Lastly, I will provide a quick response to your last comment after reading the article. I realize that this comes from a Halakhah perspective, so only the Old Covenant laws apply to the Jewish believer. As you know, as Christians we are not under the Old Covenant. But despite this, I will offer a few of my thoughts under their context. What stood out to me is applying lesbianism into the law. This may seem acceptable, without looking, to apply both, yet this assumption is not consistent in regards to other laws categorically. Let me explain. When we see a command against a specific area of incest, we can surely apply it to both sexes. If a father is not allowed to engage in sex with his daughter-in-law, we can know without it being written that a daughter-in-law is not allowed to have sex with her father-in-law because it’s the same thing. But the Torah only mentions a male in this instance of Leviticus 18:22, and does not provide a command against a female lying with a female. The reason I attest that this is not automatically part of the law is because of the verse that follows Leviticus 18:22. In Leviticus 18:23, it states “And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion.” Notice that the first command against bestiality is writing to the reader who is expected to be male. Then it commands a second time to refer to a female. This is quite interesting in that for bestiality, it does not give a general command, but separates that both the male reader and the female should not lie with a beast. We would expect that if lesbianism was part of this, than we would see a verse similar to this: “neither should a woman lie with a female as with a male.” When reviewing the gender of commands in the 613 laws, it seems that it is clear in its separation when needed. Because this separation was not given, it makes it more clear that perhaps this command was specific to males due to the Canaanites performing anal sex in their idol worship rituals which “defiled the land before them.” Their was no lesbianism involved in these rituals, as it all had to do with sacrificing the semen of the males in a non-procreative way. As a reminder to the New Testament reader, we can see this contextually in Romans 1, as “even their women exchanged their natural function (married sex) for that which is unnatural (anal sex for idol worship).” Then we see that LIKEWISE the men did the same thing (remembering that lust was present and not the love of a committed union.)

      So if male homosexual practice was forbidden in Leviticus 18:22 only due to the fact that it was associated with the idolaters who were in the land before them, then it would seem that this command could not fit in a general sense for all modern Christians, as we are not under the law of Moses. Unless one wants to rely on the vague interpretations of the words arsenokoites (male, beds) and malakos (soft) as meaning “homosexuals” instead of “male prostitutes” and possibly child molesters (for malakos), then we still don’t see anything against all of homosexuality (both male and female “participants.”)

      On that note, the word that means “male, beds” still only mentions a male, so where is the female in all of this? I am not claiming that male homosexuality is wrong and female homosexuality is okay. But what I am questioning is why the Bible would not make this clear if it was speaking to all homosexuals (both male and female.) We would expect that if arsenokoites (actual translation “male, beds”) really did mean “male having sex with a male,” then another word might be present [which I have coined] “thélusokoites” (actual translation “female, beds”) which would then perhaps suggest a female having sex with a female. But no such word is present… Due to this, one should question if homosexuality is truly the target here or if it is just pertaining to the male shrine prostitution that was so entrenched in the culture. As for a modern application, male-beds can obviously be seen as a man in many beds, thus we can apply this to promiscuity.

      Going back to the article as a Jew under the Old Covenant law with a prohibition against male homosexual acts, we must now look at the modern encouragement of celibacy. This may make sense to the Christian believer, but to the Jewish, this not only adds a new command that is not present, but breaks a command that encompasses many other commands. The command to marry and have children is central to the Old Covenant. So by choosing celibacy, they are adding and breaking The Law. The only celibate in the Old Testament was the prophet Jeremiah who was explicitly commanded by Yahweh Himself not to take a wife or have children for the reason that the land he was in would be destroyed. But he (Jeremiah) later writes a command to the Jews to marry. So this was still a command, and the exception was only given by the protection of Yahweh. But for the modern gay Jew, it would be impossible to be celibate and Torah observant. But thankfully the author recognizes that homosexuality is not a choice and how inhumane it is (for both) to force marriage upon someone who has repulsion for their spouse. But nothing of this nature is reviewed in the Old Testament. So where does this leave us? It would seem that the homosexual could never be a perfect Torah-observant Jew which is unfair because it leaves them “unclean” at the start. As a Christian, we know that the law was not sufficient and no one could follow the law to perfection. This shows our desperate need for a Savior and still does to this day. I feel The Lord keeps us humble, as there is only One who could fulfill the law. Praise Yahweh that Yeshua fulfilled the law and brought about the New Covenant so that we are no longer under the law of Moses!

      Lastly on a side note, one of my past friends is an Orthodox Jew and told me that the law only prohibited male homosexuality due to the reason that only the males were directly commanded to procreate. According to the interpretation that she followed, females were not directly commanded to procreate, so only the men were at fault if they did not. The women have a choice in the matter. So she claimed that lesbians were not explicitly forbidden in the law.

      So in your review of the material, I would highlight these as the most relevant links of mine to review the hermeneutics as a whole:

      http://www.gaychristians.2freedom.com (a main review.)

      Genesis 19-
      https://moanti.wordpress.com/2013/07/07/the_bible_verse_most_christians_dont_like_to_quote/

      Leviticus-
      https://moanti.wordpress.com/2013/02/16/thou-shalt-not-lie-with-a-man-exploring-the-sexual-use-of-the-hebrew-word-shakab-to-lie-with-in-scripture/
      https://moanti.wordpress.com/2013/04/13/deuteronomy_and_1_kings/

      Romans 1-
      https://moanti.wordpress.com/2012/09/08/is-homosexuality-a-sin-in-romans-1/
      https://moanti.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/what-is-the-due-penalty-for-their-error-in-romans/

      1 Corinthians & 1 Timothy, Aramaic terms-
      https://moanti.wordpress.com/2014/04/26/aramaic-and-hebrew-letters-reveal-hidden-meaning-in-the-bible-including-the-words-for-god-jesus-peace-sin-homosexuality-etc/

      Gay marriage and Christ and the church-
      https://moanti.wordpress.com/2014/04/06/can-a-gay-marriage-reflect-christ-and-the-church/

      Sexual orientation and the healing of Jesus-
      https://moanti.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/if-god-is-against-my-homosexuality-than-why-wont-he-heal-me-to-be-heterosexual/

      https://moanti.wordpress.com/2014/02/01/is-sexual-orientation-change-possible-how-to-successfully-stop-being-gay/

      But if you want to save some time, here are my picks (repeated from the links above) that I find most important and must reads:
      http://www.gaychristians.2freedom.com
      https://moanti.wordpress.com/2013/07/07/the_bible_verse_most_christians_dont_like_to_quote/
      https://moanti.wordpress.com/2013/02/16/thou-shalt-not-lie-with-a-man-exploring-the-sexual-use-of-the-hebrew-word-shakab-to-lie-with-in-scripture/
      https://moanti.wordpress.com/2013/04/13/deuteronomy_and_1_kings/
      https://moanti.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/what-is-the-due-penalty-for-their-error-in-romans/
      https://moanti.wordpress.com/2014/04/06/can-a-gay-marriage-reflect-christ-and-the-church/

      Please of course let me know if you have any questions… I must go for now. You and Martyr are in our prayers as always!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

  24. midrashcreed says:

    Dear Moanti,

    You might find the following link useful. i came across it during my own research into the multi-sexual issue. https://www.keshetonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/We-Cant-Legitimate-Homosexuality-Halakhically.pdf

    Good reading!

  25. midrashcreed says:

    Dear Moanti,

    Thank you for your latest reply which as usual I find stimulating and thought provoking. Not too ‘gnashing’ and sighing in exasperation at my end, you’ll be glad to hear. At this stage on the eve of a protracted retreat I don’t think I can respond to your points in any degree of depth because what I say now could change within the next few weeks. Also any questions I have I will put directly to the Lord which I think is the best thing to do at this stage, but since April 12th this sense of being drawn in to engage deeply with the CMC has grown ever stronger. Indeed, I’ve rarely felt so chased by the Lord in my life. What you’ve witnessed in my case is a Damascus Road conversion. Compared to where I was less then a eleven months ago (being under a rugby scrum of teenage lesbians among other things) the changes have been truly astonishing. To be honest, I need time to pause, take stock and consider the implications of what is for my wife and I a radical new departure. Whether I lose any old friends through it remains to be seen but if it is for the sake of truth the cost will have to be borne, but I want to make sure that it will be for the sake of truth!. Your links I have already looked at in the course of my research but I do intend to look at them again in more depth.

    Your mention of the Matthew Vine and Michael Brown confrontation was interesting because I’ve followed both these men in youtube. In actual fact, I think both men make the same mistake of underestimating the devastating effect of sin on every area of our lives. While Matthew Vine appears to follow a ‘God affirms you as you are theology’ which I find to be woefully superficial; Michael Brown seems to tie himself up in knots by holding the contradictory position which portrays multi-sexuality as both a terrible sin and a lifestyle choice. As I’ve implied earlier if its a deep rooted sin or disorder the amount of choice one has is very limited unless there’s a special infusion of divine grace. So Michael Brown is left to bounce around the extremes of a rigid determinism on the one hand and a free will approach on the other. Personally, I doubt whether he has any call to deal with the multi-sexual issue. From first-hand experience I can testify that if God does want you to address it he makes exceptionally clear to you. I’ve the marks of numerous hobnailed boots on my posterior to confirm this can be the case. (At this rate, I’ll have to ask Martyr 1 to apply some ointment.) Somehow, I think if I’d been in the studio with them I would have ended-up annoying both men equally. Not for nothing do people in my part of the world have a reputation for being rather contrary. They take the stance which say ‘a plague on both your houses it’s my view which is right.’ We say it’s just being ‘blunt’ but others from outside our region wrongly equate it with rudeness. However, we do have lovely countryside and if you watch recent news items concerning the ‘Tour De France’ cycling race you’ll see some of it and a few of the areas my wife and I have gone for walks. There, that’s my bit for the local tourist industry done.

    I find it really difficult to comment on your relationship with Martyr 2. This is because I do not see it as my business to offer either glib affirmations or glib condemnations about those relationships I only know through the internet. As an Englishman I would think it rather rude to do this. However, you do seem to want my opinion so here it is. I will however try not to be too ‘blunt.’ From both the contents of your writings and our exchanges it’s clear that you’re truly regenerate and have a love for the Lord which is second to none. It’s also apparent that you have a genuine love for your spouse so thankfully I’m not dealing with a Sister George and Childe situation, (phew!). It’s also clear to me you’re not heretical in the sense of being wilfully stubborn and proud in your errors (presuming you have any). in my long and varied career as a Christian I’ve locked antlers with many heretics (including a false prophet from California during the early 1990s) and you most certainly do NOT fall into that category. This leaves open the possibility that you could be severely misguided (as any Christian can be) but the Lord will correct that in his own way and time, (Philippians3:15). Even James the brother of our Lord admitted “For in many things we offend all,” (James 4:2) so we’re not likely to do much better. There’s also the good good fruit of our contact. You and your spouse have been a great blessing both to myself and Martyr 1. Unexpectedly, a great friendship has developed to point where we almost regard you two as family. I don’t know whether I’m digging up any long lost relatives again but that’s what’s happening. Something good between us four has developed. All this suggests that at this stage of your life you’re broadly in line with God’s will. This explains why as a Conservative Christian I can take a relaxed attitude towards your lesbianism. If it’s a wrong as your critics says then God will correct it in his own way and time. There’s no need for me to interfere in this matter. The only thing I would advise you against is endlessly justifying your relationship. Sometimes I do wonder whether it’s a case of ‘Methinks, the lady doth protest to much.’ Indeed, self-justication is the great sin that blights all sides of the multi-sexual issue.You get it from traditionalists through to pro-Gay activists. The reality is that only Christ can ever justify and if we fall into the trap of endless self-justifcation then we could give the appearance of guilt even when there is none.These themes are fresh on my mind because last Friday evening i delivered a talk around them to the association of single Catholics. Praise the Lord, the gospel went out to six people.

    Prayers for my mother would be especially welcome as her falls are now so frequent that all the care services associated with her are now all agreed that she needs full time residential care. Given her sharp mind I really don’t want her to end her days in a geriatric Gulag which is nothing more then a warehouse for the dying and demented. If I knew she was saved I’d pray for the Lord to take her, but she isn’t so I dare not make that request. But with all these falls she is both a danger to herself and those who have to catch her. When she fell into my arms last Thursday afternoon just before a very good chat on my recent Family History discoveries my back almost gave way. Being bent double means that she’s an awkward shape to catch. Quite frankly, as a family we’re at a loss of what to do. Your prayers will be very welcome. What i don’t want her to do is linger on but SHE DOES NEED TO RECEIVE THE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE, On this one we are all very perplexed and feel utterly helpless.

    Yours RC

  26. midrashcreed says:

    Dear Moanti,

    My retreat in the basement of a library is going well. its been great to have time to take stock of all that’s been happening although as of yet I’ve taken no major decision on any matter. With regard to the Multi-sexual Christian Community I’ve been drawn to bible passages referring to the Samaritans. and some interesting similarities have emerged. One option I’m considering is whether to follow a dual pronged strategy in relation to the Christian Multi-sexual community. This would involve confining lighter cultural matters to GCN while dealing with more sensitive and technical hermeneutical issues here, What I might be able to do is recommend your site to more mature members of GCN who can deal with some of the topics we cover. In this context, I was wondering whether our dialogue could turn out to be a blessing to others?

    At this stage, all this is VERY tentative and doesn’t at this stage imply any commitment whatsoever from either you or me. But giving the blessings we’ve had, it’s an option worth praying about, which I’m sure you will do. It also goes without saying that both our spouses need to be happy about pursuing it. For some reason we’ve ‘clicked’ wonderfully well and I was wondering whether there’s some wider reason for this unexpected development. A few months ago I wouldn’t have believed it possible.

    Please don’t rush into making a response, take your time, think about things carefully and consult with Martyr 2. I am in no hurry for a reply. Maybe, just maybe there could be room for some kind of collaboration here. Either way a lot of discernment is going to be required. If any form of collaboration did emerge then it would be wise to have a three month probationary period which would allow us to go our separate ways without ill feeling.

    Do please continue to pray for my mother. She’s in hospital again after yet another one of her falls and even worse she’s lost control of her bowel movements. I’m seeing her tomorrow but the feeling among both family members and health professionals is that she’s in need of twenty-four house nursing care. I’m now starting to wonder whether it would be better if the Lord would take her. I will have a better idea when i visit her tomorrow afternoon. Old age can be a miserable business.

    • Hello Raymond,
      I will definitely pray about this issue… It is my passion to help people especially regarding these things, so this sounds like a great idea at first thought. As far as timing, I will be having a major surgery coming up soon which is 4 years overdue (don’t worry, I’m NOT getting a sex change! Haha!) I haven’t been given the date yet, but will most likely be in the next few weeks and I am not sure yet how long my recovery time will be… I’m just waiting on the call. I will update you. Please forgive me for my slower responses, as I have been delayed partially due to pain of needing this operation. Please pray for me, as the doctor said yesterday that it is a MIRACLE I have lasted this long without a serious life threatening complication. Most last a year and a 1/2 to 2 years maximum before a serious complication can cause death without an emergency operation and the doctor has never seen anyone in my condition last this long without surgery. So it was an anomaly for her to see me and all praises were given to God! I’ve just been having to wait because I did not have the money to pay until now since I finally have medical insurance. Sadly, being subject to the American healthcare system, my past attempts at surgery without enormous fees have gone unanswered until now. Thankfully for me, Martyr 2 has truly been given a healing gift from the Holy Spirit. Although I have not been fully restored without surgery, there has certainly been many times that I have been on the brink of emergency and it has always miraculously subdued with a laying of her hands in prayer. I can actually feel the problem undoing itself when she does this. So praise Yahweh for keeping me intact thus far! Please pray I can have a planned surgery and it doesn’t become an emergency. The doctor said to go to the Emergency Room if I experience the serious pains again… The only reason I am not saying the condition is because of the non-confidential nature of this being public for identification purposes. It is a fairly common ailment, but I just happen to have the rarest, most dangerous type, strangely enough, usually found in men and even more rare in women. Just please keep me in prayer. I have faith God has kept me around for a reason and “my time” is not of yet until I have fulfilled all of the plans according to His Will. His glory is shown in so many miraculous ways! Praise Him night and day for His mighty works!

      We are also continuing to pray for your mother! I am wondering if her salvation will be prompted from a revealing dream or vision before she passes. This is the sense that I have if it be in His Will for her to know the truth. Martyr 2 and I have been praying for her health and salvation. For the sake of you, His loving servant, may it come to pass.

      I must go for now, but please keep me updated, and I will as well. I do want to help in any way I can! May The Lord continue to lead you in the truth!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti
      P.S. I did have one question. When you spoke of a 3 month probationary period, can you please explain more of the purpose of this? Thanks!

  27. midrashcreed says:

    Dear Moanti,
    Once again death has looked my mother in the face and ran of screaming (or dozed of because she was talking too much). I saw her this afternoon in hospital and she quickly perked up after I began conversing with her. She’s very pleased at the way you are praying for her and sends her regards. My mother has even got some of my Muslim contacts praying for her too. How she manages to get so much attention I just do not know. She views with amusement the prospect of being a Gay icon in California! We are discussing full time residential care with her and she agrees that’s what’s needed. It’s now just finding her the right place. Not easy with limited finances. I greatly benefited from some words of wisdom she gave about a family matter during the visit. Our meeting was a great blessing. Maybe that was an effect of God answering your prayers.

    I was VERY sorry to hear about your own ill health and of course I will on this retreat pray about your operation and for your spouse to have the grace to cope.Please let us know how you get on. In an odd sort of way we across the pond regard you both as family in Christ. We’ve never enjoyed this quality of fellowship on the Internet before. I was glad to hear you were not having a sex change operation. Having to deal with one M to F Transgender on the Internet was quite enough! Dealing with one the other way around would be a little too much. The last one ended by wanting to give me a big Christian hug. That was one offer I could certainly refuse!

    My retreat continues to go well and things continue to emerge. However tonight (with Martyr 1 away leading a walking weekend) I took myself to the theater to see a very silly and hilarious farce. There were lots of belly laughter and stand-up applause at the end. It really was good to get some light relief from all the work I’d been doing.Tomorrow afternoon, I may attend another poetry gig to see whether opportunities may emerge to do stand-up performing. Last Monday evening I saw a well known English poet perform some medieval-based material but his voice was so melodic and soothing that I fell asleep and began to snore. I shouldn’t have had a 72 length swim beforehand. Even worse, when I awoke I had to keep crossing and uncrossing my legs because I desperately wanted to go somewhere.

    What I was envisaging for a three month trial period was discussing with you some of the weightier matters to do with multi-sexuality whilst leaving lighter matters to GCN. However, given your health issues this appears to hardly a feasible option. The last thing you may want to do is get bogged down in such discussions when recovering from an operation and I quite understand why. The medical system you have out in the States seems quite ghastly. I’m glad that over here we have the National Health Service despite all of its many well publicized faults.

    • Hello Raymond,
      Just wanted to send you a quick note and say that I am glad to hear death is running and screaming away from your mother! She is quite a character and beloved from afar… “A gay icon in California,” hahahaha! Also it must be said that Martyr 2 and I both regard you as family as well! 🙂 God certainly works in mysterious ways to create such a rare match! As far as the 3 month talk, I will have to see how I am doing in recovery. It may be EXACTLY what I need to distract me from the pain. This is of course if I am able to physically write during this time. The location of the incision will be in my lower abdomen going vertically. So I will just have to see how this goes… It could be the perfect time to do this if I am physically up to the task since I will have so much time on my hands. Only time will tell… I truly want to be involved in this venture and not let this prevent me from offering my insight, as I feel God has brought us together for this very reason. Please do pray that I may be able to have a laparoscopic surgery, as this would be much less painful and a quicker recovery. But sadly it seems this may not be an option considering the size of the problem. I will let you know. I must go for now, but hope to hear from you soon. You and your family continue to be in our prayers.
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti
      P.S. When you’ve previously mentioned me as a “long lost relative,” I do have past ancestors from England on my mothers side. I will have to find out from exactly where… Wouldn’t that be interesting… 😉

  28. midrashcreed says:

    Dear Moanti,

    Following months of hesitation and painstaking verification I have finally decided to get involved in the multi-sexual issue through registering with GCN sometime in early August. (By that time I will have cleared up some work and have a little more time on my hands.) I’m now on the last lap of ‘The Great Turn Around’ that began on April 12th. This has marked a radical move away from a dismissive indifference to multi-sexual issues to one of committed engagement as a bible-believing Christian. The full implications of this shift remain to be seen, but it represents one of the biggest turning points in my Christian life. It wasn’t as if I wanted to enter such a contentious and at times toxic area but as you well know God had other plans. It was a case of being chosen rather then me choosing, (Jeremiah 1:5). It’s clear that from all eternity the sovereign Lord has determined that this should be the time to begin engaging with the Multi-sexual Christian Community, (Ephesians 1:3-14). Not to do so would represent deliberate disobedience to the Holy Spirit and I have enough problems in my life without incurring the ones resulting from that particular sin. Anyway, I shall now relate how I got to the point of 100% that this call was of God and not some well crafted deceit of Satan (which was something I was VERY worried about).

    Last Sunday afternoon the poetry event I was planning to be at fell through because of the World Cup Final. (Oh how I loath football, Grrr!) The poets turned up but there was no audience. After over an embarrassing hour spent waiting I decided to attend the local Baptist Church to see whether the only minister in our area I wasn’t allergic to was preaching. Sure enough he was and I decided to stay. At the worship began I prayed. ‘Lord speak to me your servant is listening,’ (1 Samuel 3:9-10) and as a further precaution l asked Jesus to bind anything to do with the world, the flesh and the devil. I was determined to hear from the Lord with spotless accuracy. The preacher didn’t know anything about my situation and I didn’t even know whether he’d be preaching that night or what subject he’d be preaching on.

    Well from beginning to end his message confirmed everything I’d been discussing with you during the last few months. This applied even to its title which was ‘Pushing the Boundaries of Mission: Becoming a World Christian.’ With this ministers permission I shall now quote most of his sermon. There’s no copyright on it. The bits that really spoke to me I’ve placed in bold capitals, but really virtually every part of it was significant.

    “WE NEED TO LEARN TO PUSH BOUNDARIES… perhaps gently, but sufficiently to remind us not to get stuck, but to keep exploring what God is doing today.

    Background:
    The expected story was this… things would become more and more difficult, until finally, in a great world climax, all Israel’s enemies would be defeated and they would stand, the all-conquering champions of God’s Kingdom.
    Jesus has re-written the story… there is to be a new Israel, centred on him… but then he goes and dies… all the hopes of those who have started to follow him… the first-fruits of the new Israel, are at first trapped in what seems to them to be an inescapable cul-de-sac of death and defeat, but … Now the climax is not some big earthly battle, but a great triumph in the heavenly places, centred on Jesus as the risen Christ.
    Now what? So he meets them on the mountain side so that the ‘now what’ can begin to unfold. Boundaries around what we think mission is about begin to be tested.

    1. Mission emerges from worship.
    This has happened before in verse 9, when the women worshiped and then are sent to tell others that he is alive. As we come out of the presence of the King our faces (should) be shining with the light of his glory.
    Activists among us need to cultivate the practice of being in the presence of the King – this may be the first boundary we need to test – are we sufficiently abiding in Christ so that we can grow into fruitfulness?
    IT IS IN WORSHIP THAT THE DOUBTS BEGIN TO BE SORTED… THEIR DOUBTS WERE PROBABLY NOT SO MUCH ABOUT HIM, BUT MORE TO DO WITH ‘IS THIS HIM?’ – PERHAPS SQUINTING INTO THE MOUNTAIN MIST TO TRY AND DISTINGUISH HIS FEATURES. THEY NEED TO BE IN HIS PRESENCE TO BE CONFIDENT THAT THIS IS THE REAL JESUS WHO IS SENDING THEM INTO THE WORLD.

    2. Mission belongs to God first.
    Their responsibility comes out of the authority first been given to Christ. We join something that is God’s first. Missio Dei. God has sent himself, and is by character a sending God. We are primarily in the service of the King of kings.
    This may be a second boundary, being challenged to go where we think we have no need to go because we’ve limited the call of God to our preferences and temperament. (Within 20 miles of Luton).
    This kind of limiting reflects the compromised position Satan offered Jesus at the beginning: Then the Devil took Jesus to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in all their greatness. “All this I will give you,” the Devil said, “if you kneel down and worship me.” (Mat 4:8-9)
    In Matthew 28 Jesus says ‘All authority has been given to me’… Satan, you bow down.
    NO TERRITORY IS OFF LIMITS (just because they don’t serve filter coffee there) … all authority in heaven and on earth. This is the world program of the risen Christ.

    3. Mission is shaped by the nature of God
    Those who come to faith are to be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Mission flows out of community/relationship. Those who become disciples get enfolded in that. Baptized into the Trinity.
    Not programs, not premises, not presuppositions, but the principle of who God is. Always in community and always going out in love to his world.
    When hyper-Calvinism ruled: At a ministers’ meeting in 1786, Carey raised the question of whether it was the duty of all Christians to spread the Gospel throughout the world. John Ryland, shaped by that hyper Calvinism is said to have retorted: “Young man, sit down; when God pleases to convert the heathen, he will do it without your aid and mine.” He had not grasped the significance of the missionary nature of God for all believers.

    4. Mission involves making disciples
    Not Christians – only God can do that… For it is by God’s grace that you have been saved through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts, but God’s gift, so that no one can boast about it. (Eph 2:8); “no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit”. (John 3:5)
    Not people like us – WE ARE TO GO TO ‘ETHNE’ – ALL PEOPLE GROUPS. NO REFERENCE IS MADE TO MAKING THEM LIKE US, EXCEPT IN THE FACT THAT WE ARE ALL SEEKING TO BE LIKE CHRIST.
    Every believer can disciple others… a disciple is someone who is learning a way of life, and most of us learn lifestyle by imitation. Paul says: 1Co 11:1 Imitate me, then, just as I imitate Christ. Heb 13:7 Remember your former leaders, who spoke God’s message to you. Think back on how they lived and died, and imitate their faith.
    Another boundary to be pushed… recognizing the powerful effect of a good life well lived. (Mentors). Not self-absorbed; not ‘do I look good in this brand of Christianity, but does Christ look good in me?’

    5. Mission is about teaching all that Jesus commanded
    That is not narrow as we sometimes suspect. Its range contrasts sharply with the mealy mouthed narrowing of his story which the guards negotiated in the previous few verses when they were paid to say that he was still dead and that his body had been stolen by a bunch of thieving disciples during the night.
    He is not dead, his followers are not a bunch of thieves, and this is what God is inviting to consider as his work:
    Lifestyle – Matthew 5-7
    Acting as yeast to change society (Matthew 13)
    The importance of community (Matthew 18:20)
    Go and preach, ‘The Kingdom of heaven is near!’ Heal the sick, bring the dead back to life, heal those who suffer from dreaded skin diseases, and drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. (Mat 10:7-8)

    IT IS HOLISTIC. THIS IS ANOTHER BOUNDARY TO PUSH… TO CEASE THE SILLY DIVORCE BETWEEN SOCIAL ACTION AND EVANGELISM; TO GET BEYOND THE PROCLAIMING OF FORMULAS; TO RISK THE IMPOSSIBLE OF RAISING UTTERLY LOST CAUSES TO LIFE.

    6. Mission is always accompanied
    The Gospel began with the wonderful statement that he would be called Emmanuel: God with us, and ends with the same great promise – God with us, even to the end of the age. A constant presence out of which he leaves a trail of clues…
    Response:
    Master, speak! And make me ready, when thy voice is truly heard. With obedience glad and steady. Still to follow every word. I am listening Lord for thee. Master, speak, O speak to me. (Frances Ridley Havergal)

    Weave our little stories into your grand purpose
    Jesus the lover, who embraced the world with compassion and touched lives with healing;
    Who dared to offer forgiveness and worked to bring reconciliation;
    Who showed the things that make for peace with God, with one another and with ourselves,
    Jesus we must walk your way. Call us to be a missionary community.”

    During the time of worship that followed I received a fresh anointing of the Holy Spirit This was accompanied by speaking in the gift of languages. immediately after this manifestation ceased there was a peaceful clarity of mind that allowed me to decide to blight (whoops I mean bless) GCN with my presence. Something profound happened that evening, it represented a decisive tipping point from hesitation to commitment. No excuse was left inaction

    All that needs to be done now is to clarify my thinking in certain areas and present my whole service in this area to Christ, as a living sacrifice. (Romans 12:1-2). Once this has been done I’ll be ready to start. Within my heart is the determination that this engagement with the Christian Multi-sexual Community will be entirely Christ’s work and not my own.

    You Moanti and your spouse have been spiritual midwives superintending the successful delivery of a large, healthy and very noisy baby. Your role has been crucial. I’m especially grateful for the way you patiently provided a safe and caring environment to work through difficult issues. (This side of things may well have to continue.) No other site would have done this. Our encounter has been truly providential. I really don’t know what more to say. I’m just stunned by the amazing work God has done. For once the word ‘awesome’ isn’t an exaggeration. Whatever good may come out of this unexpected and at times very unwelcome call will owe something to your faithfulness. So many thanks. When it’s ready I’ll send you a Midrash Bible Study exploring the telling similarities between the Samaritans and the Multi-sexual Christian Community. You and Martyr 2 should find it interesting.

  29. midrashcreed says:

    As I gather you may be having health problems I’ve enclosed this piece for your edification. Not been too well myself with hay fever and resulting skin rashes. I’ve got rather a scabby face at present. Also felt thoroughly drained and ill tempered. Even the cat is scared of me at present. Will be away with Martyr 1 exploring English castles in the Midlands, so will be out of contact for a week. Take care and get well.

    AN UMPROMISING PEOPLE?

    (A Midrash Comparing the Samaritan and Christian Multi-sexual Communities)

    Section 1: A Samaritan Religion

    On the morning of Sunday, 13th July 2014, I attended a Eucharistic Service held by a Gay Friendly Anglican Church located in a deprived inner city area. It was the same Church I walked out of on Christmas Eve 1995 because its worship was so dominated by Earth Mother Feminism that it almost had no Christian content at all. This time the service was merely bad rather than atrocious so I could just about sit it, although I winced when they prayed ‘Our Mother and Father in Heaven.’ Other mixed religious elements included the use of a Buddhist Gong and a hailing of our Buddhist and Islamic Brothers and Sisters as the elements were being raised (this deterred me from taking Communion). The sermon given by a rather smug elderly priest had been a triumphant proclamation that God’s Kingdom would come and bring joy. This was followed by a long rambling anecdote about goodness knows what. (Somehow it featured a German boy or was it a horse called Hans?) There was nothing about judgment for it was assumed that regeneration was conferred by the priestly hocus-pocus of child baptism. Absent was any grasp of the Gospel.

    The congregations consisted of twenty-two adults and six to eight children. They consisted of tattoo covered inner city types, bespectacled university types, some elderly ladies, a little and large lesbian couple and a male same-sex couple in their thirties. (There was a Gay Affirmation Service in the back of their prayer book) Yet despite the doctrinal shambles some positive features were present. Care was taken to include the children in the service. Also a lot of the congregation were into good works like food banks for the poor and other similar activities. Most moving of all was a beautiful banner memorial to a 15 year old girl who killed herself through glue sniffing during the early morning hours of Saturday, 18th August 1990. At this point memories came flooding back of my wife and I leading that girl to Christ in our living room in 1986, the way she used act as an elder playing sister with my own daughter on the steps outside our house until her lost final months and the ear shattering howls of anguish as her mother discovered her body lying beside the dustbin area. It was a time of us packing to go on holiday to a nearby seaside resort and as we left we saw an ambulance and a police car parked on the neighbouring road. Never were we glad to go on holiday with our four young children. This girl’s mother never recovered and I ascertained from a member of the congregation that she was now ill with emphysema and fitful in her attendance. (She’d been a heavy smoker.) Doubtless, she was still longing to join her daughter.

    After gulping down a cup of tea I was glad to leave that Church of haunting memories and total spiritual disconnect between I and the congregation with its smugly complacent preacher. Yet my visit had been valuable. It highlighted the extent to which the Multi-sexual Community within the United Kingdom were being short-changed by both the conservative and liberal wings of the church. It also became clear that the interests of the Christian Multi-Sexual Community (CMC) were not served by watering down Christian truth in a vain attempt to be socially acceptable. The reality is that love and truth must go together in any outreach, (Ephesians 4:15). Yet far more valuable was the way this service had set the seal on a bible study I’d been doing into the Samaritans, whose good and bad aspects appeared to anticipate those of the CMC. Indeed, I came to the conclusions that in many ways the Samaritans were a forerunner (prophetic ‘type’) of the CMC. This was a point reinforced by the service I attended. To see exactly how these two groups are connected it is first necessary to go to scripture to explore the historical origins of the Samaritans. As the next section will show, intriguing parallels exist in the way both these communities got started and how they subsequently developed.

    Section 2: Unpromising Beginnings

    The most obvious feature of the Samaritans was that they were an unpromising people with unpromising beginnings in a time of humiliating defeat for God’s people. These points were highlighted in a study of 2 Kings 17:24f which described their origins. On close examination of this passage we find that the beginning couldn’t have been in worse circumstances. God had been so enraged by the idolatry practised by the people he’s created that he was now in the process of removing them from His sight. Quite literally God was disgusted by the behaviour of those who claimed to serve Him. Long ago they had been given over to division which had divided the Northern tribes of Israel from the Southern tribes of Judah. The former were in the process of being conquered by cruel Assyrian invaders who were not above impaling their captives or skinning them alive, while the days of the latter were already numbered. Both these kingdoms had turned aside from the Lord to serve the idols of the surrounding nations – although in Judah’s case this trend to apostasy was delayed by periodic revivals that were often held under the firm leadership of good kings like Hezekiah and Josiah. Judah also benefitted from having the temple where the sacred books of Scripture were stored and this often provided a teaching resource to fall back on. At once parallels can be drawn with the church groupings of both America and Britain. An employment of a biblical ‘This is that’ formula will highlight this point.

    Once employed it’s possible to argue that this thoroughly paganised kingdom of Israel is that foreshadow (‘type’) of equally paganised denominations like the Church of England and the Episcopalian Church of America who like Israel are being given over to internal dissent destruction by outside powers. It’s equally possible to argue that the less paganised kingdom of Judah (which had enjoyed a succession of revivals and the blessing of greater access to God’s Word) is that foreshadow (‘type’) of less paganised church groups like the Evangelical Alliance in Britain and the Southern Baptists of America. Divine judgement is still coming upon those groups but at a slower rate. Like Judah these Conservative Christian bodies were relative backwaters but they still got caught up and destroyed by the violent political struggles of the time. They had failed to seek God’s counsel or his strategy for responding to the threats around them. It’s also noteworthy that Israel and Judah were, as a punishment for their faithlessness, handed over to the merciless wrath of evildoers who came from the Middle East and practised mass murder. Will the same happen to the equally faithless church bodies of today? Given recent developments in that region such a scenario cannot be dismissed.

    Section 3: A Messed-up People

    Now into this hopeless setting of judgement and catastrophe came the Samaritans, deported under the orders of the wicked Assyrian king to repopulate the kingdom of Israel. Like Multi-sexual Christians with a strong same sex or transgender orientation, they had no choice but to be where they were. Nor could they receive much comfort from the remnant of God’s people in Judah who despised them even though they themselves had been given over to a retributive spiritual blindness as a punishment for their persistent rejection of prophets like Jeremiah. (2 Kings 25:7 revealed that in the case of King Zedekiah, the blindness would also turn out to be physical.) Moreover, the Judeans would also be facing enslavement and deportation. Like many Conservative Traditionalists in the Church they were in denial about the fact that the religious and cultural system they had invested their whole identity in was doomed. They foolishly believed that the presence of the temple would guarantee their physical as well spiritual security and woe betide anyone who challenged that mistaken belief; (Jeremiah 7 & 26).Today there is a similar misplaced confidence in large institutions and failure to recognize that Christian Britain is dead and that Christian America is rapidly going the same way. Sadly, one has to ask where are the Christian Conservatives with the faith to go to the Lord and ask, “What will you have us do in this situation?”

    Present in Judah’s contempt for the Samaritans was a prophetic anticipation of the relationship between the CMC and many Conservative Christians. The latter would despise the former but were too blind to see that they themselves were coming under a severe judgement. Like the Samaritans the CMC are a people of unpromising beginnings and also like the Samaritans they are spirituality a messed-up people subject to many conflicting, idolatrous influences. Confusion appears to have been their hallmark. In terms of religious diversity the two communities were almost a match for one another. Social isolation had provoked both of them to set-up their own places of worship but these sometimes succumbed to the crudest forms of paganism, (2 kings 17:29-31).

    Nor did things get any better for once these communities were established for a period of mass death quickly followed. Many Samaritans were killed by lions as a result of failing to revere the Lord (2 Kings 17:25-26) while much of the modern multi-sexual community would be devastated by the Aids epidemic of the 1980s, not long after its foundation in the Stonewall Riots of 1969. Their plight couldn’t have seemed more hopeless. However, it was into this dark situation that God began to show mercy. To the Samaritans he sent a priest to teach them the rudiments of the Law and the right way of worship (2 Kings 17: 27-28) while to the Multi-sexual Community He raised up many charitable Christian endeavours. Yet despite this blessing, religious syncretism continued to be a problem. Just as the Samaritans persisted in worshipping many gods, in spite of spite paying nominal allegiance to the one true God; so the Christian end of the Multi-sexual community nominally adhered to Christian truth whilst being heavily influenced by the syncretism of ‘progressive’ theologies and the culture around them. They were still a mixed-up people subject to the contempt of their neighbours. In both cases, it would take a major work of grace to change things.

    Section 4: Discomfiting the Pious

    In the New Testament a major work of grace does begin in the person of Jesus Christ one of whose specialities was to reach out to despised outcasts. In Luke 10:30-37 he tells a parable that was designed to have an unsettling effect on its pious but prejudiced audience. It was of course, the parable of ‘The Good Samaritan.’ In order to assess the impact of this parable try imaging the effect of telling a similar parable but one entitled ‘The Good Transgender’ to a strict Baptist Congregation in the Southern states of America of a closed Brethren Assembly in Britain. One can easily imagine the stony silence that greeted Jesus. In relation to the Samaritans Jesus was not offering a glib affirmation of all their believed and practiced (a lot of it after all was nonsense) but what He did was show that THE SAMARITANS WERE NOT BEYOND THE SACRIFICIAL MERCY AND LOVE OF GOD. How would his hearers know this? The answer is that the ‘good’ Samaritan was given the capacity to display precisely these same qualities to another party. Moreover, these were qualities leading to a breaking of man-made religious and tribal barriers. Is there any evidence of at least some good Samaritans being present in the CMC? The answer is ‘yes.’ Leaving aside the extraordinary graciousness that members of that community have displayed towards myself at a crucial turning point in my life, there was the case of those who rallied to support a man who was near suicidal. Their intervention appears to have saved his life. Such good ‘fruit’ in terms of rescuing the afflicted suggests that not all those actively affiliated to the CMC should be written off. As with the Samaritans of Acts 8:25 there can also be a greater receptivity to the Gospel. Given all the rejection they face, sometimes, the gospel is the only thing these people have left to cling onto.

    In this parable Jesus was holding the Good Samaritan up as a role model. In effect he was saying to doctrinally orthodox traditionalists ‘if a people with their often flaky theology and practices can display such qualities how much more must you who claim to be in the truth?’ A failure to display such qualities means at best that only ‘lip service’ is being paid to that truth. It’s not a reality in their hearts, (Isaiah 29:13). Present here is an anticipation of the tragedy blighting many conservative churches that are strong on doctrine but weak in practice. Bound-up in a petty minded legalism, they often fail to see that it is a work of divine grace to give hope to a hopeless people. Such a blessing is only possible because of Christ’s atoning death which had forever pacified divine wrath on those who believe in Him, (1 John 2:2) God can only ever truly affirm people once faith has made ‘operative’ the many blessings resulting from Christ’s death. If there’s no faith there’s no salvation and if there’s no salvation there’s no affirmation, only condemnation. The only road to affirmation lies through the cross. This point applies to both multi-sexuals and to their doctrinally orthodox critics. Indeed, it’s a point that applies to everyone. Want eternal life? Then believe with both your heart and head that Jesus Christ was sent by God to take away your sins through offering a perfect blood sacrifice before rising bodily from the dead three days later. As it promises in Romans 10:9, “if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

    Section 5: A Shark Infested Pool

    The Parable of the Good Samaritan begs the question ‘how are biblically-based believers to relate to the modern day equivalent of the Samaritans in the CMC?’ Thankfully, God’s Word gives plenty of clues. The first thing to do is to avoid throwing temper tantrums at the ‘bad’ Samaritans who stubbornly reject the Gospel. Jesus upbraided his disciples for that very same sin in Luke 9:51-56. Our Lord wisely accepted that it was for God to deal with such rejection by bringing the parties concerned either to repentance or judgement in His own good time. What true disciples mustn’t do is risk making the way of salvation unnecessarily difficult by reacting badly to the rejection that will inevitably come to all those seeking to share the Gospel. Instead, they should quietly move on without fuss in obedience to the instruction our Saviours gave in Luke 10:10-12. If one can’t handle rejection don’t attempt to be a Christian witness, least of all to multi-sexuals.
    It’s been precisely in this area that many fundamentalist churches in America especially have failed. All too often they have treated the gospel as their own property and refused to accept that it’s a Gospel for multi-sexuals as well as for themselves. Unacknowledged is the rather obvious point that Christ came to save multi-sexuals from the penalty of eternal death by offering a perfect blood sacrifice for their sins. Even the most flamboyant of multi-sexuals are not beyond the reach of divine mercy so long as they appropriate by faith the many blessing resulting from Christ’s death. In that biblical sense the Gospel is inclusive.

    Until recently I used to say that “no Christian should seek to engage deeply with the multi-sexual issue unless there is a clear and unmistakeable call to do so.” I would still give that advice because the whole area is so toxic that to enter carelessly is like jumping naked into a shark infested pool. However, I’d now qualify that advice by stating, “Multi-sexuality is now becoming so pervasive in our society that it’s fast becoming impossible for most Christians to ignore it; consequently, they will need to know how they should respond to the various types of multi-sexuals they will encounter.” Endless whinging on Conservative Christian Forums is not the answer nor is trying to hide and keep one’s head low. These approaches are no longer sustainable. Instead what Conservative Christians should do is to prayerfully consult as to what strategy they should follow in response to this development. I did on the day the first same sex marriages occurred in the UK (Saturday, March 29th March 2014) and the results has been one of the most productive periods of Christian witness in my life. By God’s grace I’ve been able to share the Gospel with the most unlikely of people and enjoyed every minute of it. The trouble with many Conservative Christians is that they seem to be far better at complaining then doing. They’ve not heeded the example of Daniel 10:32b which states that “the people who know their God stand firm and take action.” Their inability to take even this basic step has left me wondering how many of them really do know God. Precious few would be my estimate.

    Section 6: The Example of Jesus

    The biggest clue as to how true believers should respond to Christian Multi-sexuals is to take Jesus as our role model. Exactly how we can do this is shown by His encounter with the Samaritan Woman that’s recorded in John 4:4-25. The first thing to notice is that He risked scandalising His disciples (John 4:27) by being willing to engage with and accept the hospitality of a pariah community represented by a woman with an extremely rackety private life. (In my part of the world she would have regarded as ‘being bit of a slapper.’) Hardly promising material it seemed for outreach. Yet throughout His extended dialogue with her, Jesus was courteous, willing to indulge in intelligent conversation and compassionate in pointing out the way of salvation. However, when the opportunity arose, He was willing be very firm in pointing out the flaws in her theological understanding, (John 4:22). There were some issues she had to be told she was wrong on in order for her to be led into greater truth. However, the mature way in which she handled this disagreement enabled relationship of trust was created between Jesus the embodiment of Jewish Orthodoxy and an outcast Samaritan woman. Spiritually, they were very much an odd couple. To her credit this woman had not indulged in foot-stamping tantrums nor had she accused Jesus of being a ‘bigot’ or ‘Samaritan phoebe.’ Her reaction throughout this dialogue was polite and receptive. So if Jesus should be taken as a role model for bible-based Christians approaching the CMC, the Samaritan woman can act as a role model for responding to bible-based Christians who don’t approach them in a spirit of antagonism.

    What Jesus did for the woman was give her hope and dignity when none before had existed. This explains why she was so eager to tell the rest of the Samaritan community about Him. It seems that within it there was already some belief in a Messianic figure. On an incidental note it’s worth pointing out that the water at the well could be taken as symbolising the presence of the Holy Spirit during this encounter.

    Section 7: An Important Distinction

    Of particular interest to those thinking about engaging with the CMC is the distinction Jesus drew in John 4:37-38 between those who sowed and those who reaped. At the well Jesus was discharging a ‘sowing’ role in the sense that He was planting seeds of receptivity which in time would produce a harvest of believers that would be reaped by the Apostles, (Acts 8:25). New doors were opening to share the Good news. This was really a period of grace for the Samaritan Community, but it wouldn’t last indefinitely. In the end what matters is not whether one is called to be a ‘sower’ or ‘reaper’ but rather whether one is faithful in discharging whatever role one has been called fulfil. If this quality is present the end will be rejoicing throughout all eternity.

    It’s also interesting to note that in both cases witnessing to the benefits resulting from Christ’s atoning death is essential. This is because it is through that faith in that event we shift from being ‘vessels of wrath’ to becoming ‘vessels of mercy,’ (Romans 9:22-23).If you want forgiveness go to Jesus and trust in Him. There’s no other way. In particular, trust that he can redeem (i.e. bring good out of) every area of one’s life including one’s sexuality. Just as I’ve challenged

    Conservative Christians readers to cease being website whiners so I now challenge members of the CMC who make a great thing of their particular orientation to offer it as a living sacrifice to Christ, (Romans 12:1-2). Ask him to redeem it and use it for his glory, ask Him to send His Holy Spirit to come in and bring His grace and purity, (Luke 11:1-13). The problem with many multi-sexuals is that they’ve endured so much rejection and hurt that by way of a defensive reaction they’ve come to regard their orientation as their prize possession – the one thing that gives them identity. As Christians this can no longer be the case. OUR SEXUAL ORIENTATION, NO MATTER WHAT IT IS, SHOULD BE GIVEN OVER TO CHRIST ALONG WITH EVERY OTHER AREA OF OUR LIVES. Doing this is to submit to Him Lord and to recognize the fact that the only viable source of identity is to be in Christ
    .
    Section 7: Looming Storm Clouds

    As with the early first century Samaritan Community, God has His harvest within the CMC. Just as the blessings of Gospel light were moving from proud, pious, orthodox Judea, so in the early twenty-first century they are moving from doctrinally conservative evangelical churches to the CMC who like the Samaritans contain a mixture of good and bad spiritual influences, (Acts 1:8).Truly God’s grace can indeed move on to unexpected people living in unexpected places. Who are we to restrict it?

    However over this happy vista lay some looming storm clouds. The whole area they lived in was coming under judgement and within a generation of the Gospel going forth from Judea to Samaria the whole region would be devastated by the pagan legions of Romans marching to crush the great Jewish revolt that’s so ably described by the first century Jewish historian Josephus. Despite a time of grace for the Samaritans judgement was coming. An obvious parallel can be drawn with today’s situation. Gospel light may well go out in the CMC but the wider context is still one of judgement on Western Civilization – a civilization being gripped by an increasingly virulent mass psychosis that has the potential to consume the lives of millions. So to multi-sexual and non-multi-sexual readers alike I say “NOW is the time of salvation, the time to receive the Gospel and benefit from the many merits of Christ’s death upon the cross. Delay and it could be too late.”

    • Hi Raymond!
      I’m sorry for my delay in response, but with all truth in heart, I have thought of you every day and you remain in our prayers. You have been a blessing to us and have come at a perfect time to give hope to not only me, but so many others. As you guessed, I have been struggling physically and have had little time to write amongst unexpected distractions. I have still not received the date of the surgery. Please pray I can get this done soon without an emergency, as I am to return to work in mid August but this could complicate my ability to work of delayed much longer.

      Today is also a very busy day, but I wanted to at least send you a quick word. Thank you for your comprehensive comparison of the CMC and the Samaritans. I will give a more exhaustive reply on my thoughts at a later date, but for now, what stands out is the dangers of the gay community falling into churches who accept them, but have compromised the Word of the true Living God for mixtures with idol religions. I can thankfully say that my church has not ever tread on such dangerous ground. It is Bible based and holds the Gospel message without compromise. It just happens to be made up of mainly gay and lesbian believers. The “gay issue” is not at the forefront, and in fact I have only heard it mentioned once in our Bible study class when we were going through the book of Leviticus. Upon this, we learned that we have a mix among the congregation. Some are convicted that they are sanctified in their Christ-centered life unions. While others (more in minority) are convicted that they are called to celibacy.

      On a side note, I believe that your message of asking God how to use our orientation for His glory is key. Asking for God to sanctify it, and if a life-relationship develops, then sanctify that as well. Perhaps the biggest question should not be wether homosexuality is a sin or not, but wether one believes in the power of Christ’s blood enough to forgive us if it is sin. I believe the sacrifice He made was not in vein and nothing can snatch those who are called to the Faith out of His hand. Christ does not let go, so why should we assume His grasp falls short of saving us? We are sanctified, justified and purified by His blood! Our identity is in CHRIST.

      With this last thought in mind, the fault I’ve seen in many gay affirming churches is to over fixate in the gay identity. The way in which I have seen this play out in churches (not of my own) is to use the pulpit for gay political and social justice issues. These churches do not mix other religions as the one you spoke of, but they do lose focus by being more gay-centered rather than God-centered. This is why I do not feel comfortable in such churches, as our identity is in Christ and should be the focus in all ways, and especially when we have come together for fellowship as believers. What the congregations do in their spare time outside of the church for political and social justice is their own issue. But I say, do not bring this in the walls of the church when we came to commune with believers to give glory to our Almighty Yahweh!

      Ironically, I can see this same fault manifest itself in mainstream Christian churches that put their focus on the pulpit at combating gay issues that have been set up in the political realm. (I find it sad that my relationship to Martyr 2 has been dehumanized as a political agenda.) When proposition 8 was up for vote in 2008 (the proposition that sought to remove 1,049 state and federal rights from homosexual couples that are freely given to heterosexual married couples), many churches across the state, and other states, spent millions of their church’s tithing money on advertising to slander and confuse the public to get the vote in their favor. Churches set up voting registries outside their chapels and devoted multiple sermons to the issue and used blatant lies to terrify the public of what the law would do if not passed. This widened the gap between gays and Christians, as BOTH sides saw each others efforts as a personal attack against their own families. (On a rather long side note, I understand the bothersome nature of “redefining” marriage, and would think that setting up a system which gave identical state and federal rights to domestic partners would have been fine. Although if we make domestic partnerships technically equal to marriage without needing divorce papers to separate, many heterosexuals may opt out from marriage which could potentially cause less value placed on the commitment of marriage. So each has it’s own flaws, but none the less, I see sanctified marriage as much more than a government institution or set of rights, as it is a permanent covenant between 2 united in commitment to the submission and guidance of God.)

      Now back to the type of church you attended… This is deeply disturbing to me. I have not seen an Anglican Christian church do this in the United States. HOWEVER, I have seen a sect emerge in the last decade which does not claim to be a Christian church, but claims to embrace all religions. UNFORTUNATELY, this “church” is gay-affirming. Because of this, some gays who thirst for a church family have fallen into this deception. The ones I’ve personally seen this happen to were new and vulnerable Christians. One in particular, I will call her “Jane.” Jane became a Christian by my influence, as she had never been exposed to Christianity by her unbelieving family. I witnessed a transformation within her and saw a genuine love of God. She would cry tears of joy at God’s presence, so it appeared she truly had tasted the gift of the Holy Spirit, but still was very new in her faith and did not know much of the Word. We spent about a year together going to different churches (not my current). These were not gay-affirming, but regular Anglican Christian churches. One day, a woman came up to us who overheard a private conversation that revealed our orientations. She sent Jane into tears at her slicing words of condemnation and proclaimed that we were not allowed to commune with God and were bound for hell in our lesbianism. Shortly after this traumatizing encounter, Jane had to move across the country and began seeking a church body that would accept her. Being that the state she now lives had no nearby gay-affirming Christian churches, she began attending the infamous “Universal Unitarian Church” which accepts all people of all faiths, worshiping under the same roof. I strongly warned her that this was a dangerous and deceptive church, and told her that Christianity does not “mix” with other religions. Despite this, she assured me that her Christian faith was strong enough to worship in this place and not be affected by the other beliefs. Her hunger for acceptance in fellowship overpowered her ability for good judgment. Sadly, I have seen her go from a Christian believer to a “mixed believer” of many faiths, mostly of the pagan new-age type. It deeply grieves my heart to see this to have happened to her. But clearly she was new in the faith and her foundation was weak.

      But as for the gay Christian believer who has known the faith for their whole life, I feel they have less of a risk of falling away if they remain seeking, but are still in danger of seeking out fellowship and being deceived by this pagan church if they are the only ones that accept them. This is why it is crucial for the mainstream Christian church to truly make their churches open arms rather than closed fists to the multi-sexual that seeks to worship our Creator.

      Sadly my time has run short and I must go for now. I am praying that you recover from your illness and have a wonderful time with Martyr on your trip! Thank you for your fellowship Raymond! It is such a blessing!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

  30. midrashcreed says:

    Dear Moanti,

    If that is your quick letter I wonder how long your slower ones will be? 🙂 Martyr 1 sends her blessing and thanks you for being such a good friend. In other words, She’s glad that someone else is receiving my theology lectures 🙂 I think she palmed me of onto you! However, we regard you and Martyr 2 as adopted members of our family,

    Big changes for my mother. After much heart searching and considerable reluctance she’s moving into a nearby nursing home. Martyr 1 has popped out to see her. We all agreed (my mother included) that it was the only option available. What with her falls and everything her position in her upper floor flat was becoming unsustainable. The home itself is very good and the standard of care high. My mother has already been invited to join a Bridge Club because a male 96 year old player is on his deathbed. However, my mother does feel a little disorientated having suddenly moved from a situation of relative isolation to being surrounded by lots of people. Thankfully, they are of a certain social class so my mother should be happy. Last Sunday, we took her out in a wheel chair to a local charity bookshop where I’ve done poetry recitals. The Assistant Manager there knows me switched on the charm and gave her a lot of attention. When I remarked that she’d survived the blitz, he remarked “even better she survived having you” he exclaimed looking at me with a mischievous twinkle in his eye.My mother and he then had a laugh at my expense.She then remarked on my ability to attract odd people. Tact is still a virtue that still alludes her, although she tartly remarks I’m hardly the one to talk!

    Interestingly, my mother has visited California. (So has my brother.) This was on one of her world cruises that stopped of at San Francisco. She said that if she was well enough she’d like to visit you as long as there was free bed and board. Her decided opinion is that all Californians are crazy. She’s always been inquisitive of other people and cultures. That’s something I’ve picked up from her.

    Yesterday when visiting my mother my sister was there with one of Baskervilles (large dogs) who kept jumping up and down whilst panting loudly. She wondered how on earth at the age of 90 my mother was attracting so much interest from such a diverse audience. We both think she did well to maintain at least some measure of independence until that age. There are many financial implications in this move but thankfully my brother and my sister are looking into that side of things. With Martyr 1’s elderly aunts both in failing health (one with bladder cancer) we have enough family commitments at our end. My siblings are very understanding of this. In early August Martyr 1 is going up to the North East to visit them and obtain details of their memories. Like our eldest son and I she’s caught the Family History bug.

    We are now packing for our break in the Midlands. My skin is still very irritating with hay fever – hence I’ve been taking many swims. The weather here has been boiling with temperatures of 31 degree centigrade. I gather California has been having some bush fires. I hope you two are OK. Yesterday, we had a barbecue with a good Christian friend and his wife. He gave some very good feedback as regards our involvement in the Multi-sexual issue. Anyway must pack, goodbye for now and take care.

    P.S. “Perhaps the biggest question should not be whether homosexuality is a sin or not, but wether one believes in the power of Christ’s blood enough to forgive us if it is sin. I believe the sacrifice He made was not in vein and nothing can snatch those who are called to the Faith out of His hand. Christ does not let go, so why should we assume His grasp falls short of saving us? We are sanctified, justified and purified by His blood! Our identity is in CHRIST.”
    Spot on Moanti, spot on!!! .

  31. Rosemary says:

    Hi Moanti,

    I am so so glad to have found this site. I have been doing a lot of research on the internet about this important topic, and your thoughts and insights helped solidify my belief that it is not a sin to partake in a same sex marriage. As a woman who is attracted to woman, and a Christian, I went into my research not wanting to have any bias despite my obvious hope that a same sex marriage would be acceptable. I prayed that God would ultimately have his will in my life since that is important above all else (Psalm 37:4). I ended up finding weak and strong arguments on both sides of the debate, and after a while started to enter each new site wearily since most sources I found were “duds” stating information and arguments I’d already heard before. When I found your site, I was pleasantly surprised at how articulate and thorough you are in expressing and defending your view. Over and over again you have expressed thoughts and answers to questions I have had and backed them up with scripture, in context. I have to say, I was a bit disappointed that you did not include more about yourself on this page- you seem like a very warm and emphatic person (but most importantly, filled with the Spirit :)) God bless you!

    p.s. Another essay I found very convincing was on the Gay Christian Network’s site- you can read both sides of the debate there. https://www.gaychristian.net/greatdebate.php

    • Hello Rosemarry, my sister in Christ,
      I always pray that my readers are led here and find exactly what they need as it pertains to the alignment of the Will of God in their own life. Likewise, I am in an ongoing process of asking God to further my knowledge of Biblical Scripture so that He can speak through me to bring about peace on this issue. I am truly glad that you found my articles helpful. If you wouldn’t mind sharing, I am quite curious to know what questions were answered for you here that you did not find on other sites. I know that I do some unique studies as God leads me and I never take a humans “word for it” without a personal study for Scriptural backup. But it would be nice to read how this work has affected you personally in answering your questions, if you don’t mind. 🙂

      In the seeking of such knowledge, I only do so as far as asking The Lord to reveal the truth of His Word so that others can follow what speaks to them according to God’s Will in their own life. So whatever you have received from this, I ask that you continue to pray for discernment and always remember the mighty blood covenant that sanctifies us in grace.

      I think it’s important to note that I do not have the human authority to deem what is sinful or non-sinful. (Perhaps I should add this note to my main site.) Only One has such authority. But what I can do (and hopefully have done) is provide the evidence that’s found in the Holy Word on this topic and then ask you as a reader to follow what the Holy Spirit ministers to you, personally.

      It should also be acknowledged that heterosexual marriage is likened to the “first branches” in the Olive Tree and homosexual marriage is like the “branches grafted in.” So although this may not be a popular thought among LGBT people at large, we must admit that we may be like the Gentiles as “children of adoption” into the covenant (in this case, the marital covenant.) So this is why I see same-gender marriage as a “blueprint” of heterosexual marriage, which undoubtedly came first. So we must humble ourselves in the amazing grace of our Savior, as He truly saves ALL who commit to follow Him, despite our variation from the norm.

      I know for a fact that homosexuality is not chosen, yet we must still focus on what is most important, which is not wether homosexuality is from the intentional design of creation or the fall, but rather the power of the Blood to cleanse us and bless us despite what we’ve been given to bear as fellow humans. Although there is a myriad of evidence that homosexuality as a whole is NOT condemned in Scripture, there is also no absolute proof that it is supported and/or encouraged. Therefore, we must humble ourselves to admit that we might not for sure know if it constitutes as intrinsically Biblically ordained or an action of allowed liberty by grace. I say this as a reminder to always be grateful of what God has given us and to never take His sacrifice for granted, as I am assured with everything in me that His grace is absolutely sufficient regardless of the final verdict on this topic! We are a new creation in Christ and obedience to God constitutes as living by this faith and following His command to love Him and bestow love to others. So may all glory, praise and thanks be given to Yahweh and the sacrifice of His only begotten son Yeshua who by His sacrifice, gives us access to eternal communion in His Holy prescience!

      If we do want to try to define sin or lack there of, then I believe that the sin aspect is different depending on the personal Will of God in ones own life. For a heterosexual, it would be a disobedience for them to engage homosexually, as we would know it would not constitute as love, but lust (or even lustful curiosity). For those called to true celibacy for Christ, it would be a disobedience for them to engage in either a homosexual (or heterosexual) lustful relation. Lastly, for some it would be a disobedience to go against their conscience. So when considering this, one must always be led by the Holy Spirit in such matters and obey what has been given in peace. If “love is all the law demands,” and one has the ordained or allowed liberty to commit to a God-centered covenant with a member of the same gender, then let that person ask for The Lord to sanctify their marriage, just as everyone (gay or straight) should do. For if we live for The Lord, He will bless us on our path and use us for His good according to His Will and purpose.

      I can say that my personal marriage to my spouse has been an unparalleled blessing, as our walk with The Lord has been the bearer of much good Spiritual fruit. Our Faith has increased together more than alone and our connection to Him is of absolute reliance. I believe that the most important thing in any marriage (gay or straight) is to remain God-centered. This is the conception of God’s blessing. If the couple commits their lives to walking with Christ together and uses their union as the outlet for Christian Spiritual growth, then I believe it sanctifies the union as holy. This is my personal conviction as it pertains to these things. I hope you found it likewise helpful. I look forward to hearing back from you if you decide to share. I am also open to any more questions that you might have if not already covered by what you’ve read. I thank you again for your words and thank The Lord that I have been used to help. May Yahweh bless you abundantly in your walk with Him and continue to bestow you with knowledge so that you can bear His light to the world in His Holy name!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

  32. midrashcreed says:

    Just a brief note to inform you that I’ve now registered on GCN under the user name of ‘Homorealist.’ ‘The game is now afoot’ as Sherlock Holmes would say.In addition, If you wish you can send me some greetings there. I’ve released the 52 attributes of God in 54 small sized booklet versions on Amazon Kindle. I spent hours getting it all ready. For one example please google http://www.amazon.com/ATTRIBUTE-37-PERFECTION-Faultlessness-Attributes-ebook/dp/B00MHOHNHU

    Let us know how your health is doing for you have been in our prayers. I liked your last piece on the wedding at Cana. I only wish I had more to criticise, 🙂

    Best wishes to you, your long suffering Martyr and to your cats

  33. midrashcreed says:

    Dear Moanti,

    Just to let you know that you’ll be shot of me for at least the next three weeks. For the first fortnight I’ll be sauntering around Florence and Venice with Martyr 1 in tow. After that I’ll have a lot of catch up to do. However, before you and Martyr 2 break open open a glass of wine and burst the party poppers to celebrate my absence I’ll just share with a few things in order to round off matters and end this phase on a definite note. First some brief news items.

    My mother is now happily settled in her residential home and is making so many friends that she doesn’t appear to be bothered about us being away from next Sunday onwards. At a recent pride event my wife and I were left opened mouthed as a transvestite walked passed us who was the image of mother (or at least a younger version of her). Sadly, there was a lot of godlessness present there and some parodying of Christianity too. too. We keenly feared for the future of a bespectacled little boy who was in the parade wearing a pink tutu, his hand rightly clasped to his mother. Did she have an common sense at all? You can’t mess around with the identities of little children, especially at an even that by nature tended to attract some rather unsavory men! Poor little chap he had such a lost looking expression on his face. It’s on this sort of issue that God’s anger can really be provoked.

    Thankfully my brother and sister are handling all the legal details about the selling of the flat and the move to the home. We’re just the light entertainment division. She was delighted when her great grandchildren saw her yesterday. She clung onto our 5 year old grandson as if it was for dear life. He and his cheeky younger sister brought great delight to the elderly residents. The very old often seem to bond very well with the very young.

    The fruit of my involvement on GCN has so far been astonishingly good. Great care has been taken to follow your advice. It wonderful how in the last couple of days I was able to help a very distressed mother of three married to a M to F trans-sexual who only fancied men. Sometimes I ask Martyr 1 to look over my shoulder and give me advice – she did suggest that using the phrase ‘away with the fairies’ was hardly tactful, ahem! Some of the Gay men appear to find her rather sweet. I’ve put one of my poems in the Creative Section if you wish to have a look. My profile will answer some of the questions you raised about my conversion. There is something about the whole Christian Multi-sexual scene that gets my creative juices going. We feel part of a vast family and already there’s been a measure of healing for the way things turned out between us in the Churches. We feel quite at home there.

    I still think a two pronged approach in which I handle the lighter topics on GCN and the heavier one’s with you could be the right way forward. Obviously that depends on your health and circumstances at my end. Take your time to prayerfully think about this matter during my absence and let me know whether you feel your health is up to it. Either way we hope our friendship will continue. Of course you and Martyr 2 are still in our prayers as has the wife of this transgender person.

    I have now received some definite answers to the questions I posed to the Lord during my prayer walk in July. Here are the questions again but this time with the answers that emerged during my last retreat. However, I’ve also added a Category C which consists of more recent questions.

    Category A: General Questions about the Multi-sexual Issue

    1) Whose right on this issue – multi-sexual activists like Michael Vine or anti-Gay activists like activists like Michael brown? Answer: Although, both sides make some valid points, both have displayed a great deal of sloppy thinking and have committed the same mistake of underestimating the extent to which sin has twisted every area of our lives. While Gay activists repeat the mantra ‘God loves us just as we are’, their anti-Gay counterparts superficially regard homosexuality as a lifestyle choice when in most cases it definitely is not. This failure in core thinking calls for a new Homorealist approach to be devised. Characterised by a use of Midrash bible hermeneutics it will be one that takes both human sin and God’s redemptive grace seriously.
    2) Does the evangelical wing of the Christian multi-sexual movement represent a true work of God or is it a spiritual counterfeit which is possibly designed to ‘soften up’ evangelical Christians for the great delusion Paul mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:11?
    Answer: The way God has clearly called me to engage this area suggests that divine mercy is still in operation. However, the combination of high creativity and hyper subjectivism pervading Christian multi-sexual scene could very easily ‘soften up’ evangelical Christians for this delusion. The tendency to abandon critical thinking in favour of glib affirmative thinking is very dangerous.
    3) What exactly am I dealing with here?
    Answer: A Samaritan type religion (look up relevant bible passages concerning the Samaritans)
    4) How under God’s grace, should the church address the multi-sexual issue?
    Answer: To some extent this was the wrong question to ask as in the Western world the fate of the Churches has already been decided from on high. God has given them over to this development and that is that. I should have used the word ‘Christian’ instead of ‘Church.’

    Category B: Questions concerning the involvement of my wife and I in the Multi-Sexual Issue

    1) Is God really leading me to engage with this issue using the strategy that was first drawn up in late April?
    Answer: Most definitely ‘yes’
    2) Is this call some form of deception from Satan? (If so, it’s by far the cleverest I’ve encountered in my life)
    Answer: Not in its essentials but deception could easily occur if I don’t exercise due caution
    3) Why have I been enjoying an amazing graciousness and strong sense of rapport with Gay, Lesbian and Transgender people who profess the Christian faith?
    Answer: Because of God’s grace and because I can identify with their experience of rejection from the church. Having shared cultural interests also helps. However, it was perhaps my aged mother who hit the nail on the head when she remarked, “you have a gift for attracting weird and exotic people.”
    4) If I do engage heavily in this area will it result in the right ‘fruit’ rather than pointless contention?
    Answer: That remains to be seen; it’s early days, but so far the fruit has been outstandingly good,
    5) Should I link up with a certain relevant network?
    Answer: This has now already been done
    6) Am I just acting from self-centred motives such as: –
    6.1 Rebounditus from my great failure with the Church
    6.2 Annoyance with the consistent negativity and blinkered rudeness of Conservative Christians
    6.3 A ‘fleshy’ desire for novelty and stimulation
    6.4 A hunger to have an impact and sell some books
    Answer: These possible entry points to deception were confessed and yielded to the Lord. A great deal of purification in my motives took place. Later I prayed, ‘Lord as regard the multi-sexual issue, please show me your truth, Amen’

    Category C: Questions concerning our current experience

    1) What do you like most about the Christian LGBT scene?
    Answer: The intellectual stimulus provided by a lesbian writer, the willingness to be honest about difficult personal issues and the humorous bantering one can have with participants. I was especially impressed is the compassion shown to a suicidal man who was near to killing himself, being on that network possibly saved his life.
    2) What do you like least about the Christian LGBT scene?
    Answer: The endless emoting and tedious self-justifications that can occur, the tendency to throw ‘hissy fits’ at even the mildest criticism. I remain especially unimpressed by the tendency to label every critic as a bigoted homophobe. (In fairness the network I’m on discourages such stances, but they do surface elsewhere.)
    3) What has been your best moment?
    Answer: Comforting a mother of three children who’s married to a male to female trans-sexual who’s attracted to men
    4) What has been your worst moment?
    Answer: Reading a work of Gay Theology that went on to advocate man-boy ‘love,’ it made me want to vomit. That was the only time I ever seriously considered not going down this direction.
    5) What was your most intellectually stimulating moment?
    Answer: The debates over Midrash Hermenutics with a lesbian author. As my wife remarked, “she’s a good sparring partner.”
    6) What has been your most boring moment?
    Answer: Reading the rambling self-justification of a lesbian who’d deserted her husband and children for another woman despite admitting having been happily married for 17 years. This airhead expressed surprise that her husband who’d been so ‘nice’ had turned into a ‘real hellbeast.’ (How else did she expect a Texan Redneck whom she’d just publically humiliated to react?) Her only justification for this act of irresponsibility was an “oh gee, I’ve fallen in love. This woman is so beautiful” … gush, gush, gush! I couldn’t help concluding that taking “a twelve-bore shot gun to her would have been an act of mercy killing. Quite wisely her husband seems to have decided that this airhead wasn’t worth a long prison sentence. My response in his position would have been one of ice cold ruthlessness. Still I wouldn’t have married such a ‘thick lass’ in the first place. Ten minutes in her company would have been enough. There was much eye rolling as I read her self-dramatizing account of her escape from, ‘man land.’
    7) What has been your lightest moment?
    Answer: Discussing cats with my lesbian writer associate
    8) How have you benefited from your involvement in this area?
    Answer: Intellectually there has been a vast amount of stimulation, spiritually there’s been spectacular answer’s to prayer and in terms of witnessing this has been one of the most productive periods of my life. It’s good to be on the move again. Already, it’s bought a measure of healing to the crushing sense of failure in relation to the churches. The way the Lord has started to redeem that failure has been marvelous, I just didn’t anticipate where this healing would come from.
    9) How do you think you can benefit LGBT Christians?
    Answer: The chief benefit of course will be witnessing to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Quite deliberately there will be a focus on His atoning death, (1 Corinthians 2:2). Other benefits I can bring are a much needed dose of realism and knowledge of scripture. At the cultural level I hope to share my insights into a wide range of issues. There are also my jokes that seem to strike a rapport.
    10) What’s been the most comical moment?
    Answer: The way some Gay Men believe my wife is ‘sweet,’ they seem to view her as a mother figure
    11) Do you have any remaining qualms about engaging with this area?
    Answer: None whatsoever, God has called me to discharge a certain task and by his grace I will. On this one my mind is now firmly made up. I sought the Lord for a strategy as to how I should deal with this issue and He’s given me one. As a result I’ve been an outcast flung among outcasts, but at least | know the Gospel of Jesus Christ and I’m committed to witnessing to it whenever the opportunity occurs naturally.
    12) What are your future plans?
    Answer: To engage, engage and engage; to learn, learn and learn. By late January 2015 I hope to compile a detailed summary of all the lessons I’ve learned from my engagement with the Christian LGBT scene. Already I’m on a very steep learning curve and this likely to continue over the next few months. I am seriously considering whether in the theological area my next priority should be on the publication of my Gospel summary. Envisaged is a general edition for all people and a special edition for LGBT Christians.
    13) Any final comments?
    Answer: Throughout this whole affair Acts 28:23f has kept coming to mind. When Paul was rejected by the conservative traditionalists from His own religious background he decided that he had no option but to deploy his considerable talents among the homo-erotic Gentile community of Ancient Rome. This move must have been hard for him but it had to take place if the Gospel was going to be propagated. In recent months I’ve been in a similar position to Paul – the doors have now firmly shut with traditional Christianity, but they have now opened in a new and totally unexpected area, (Revelation 3: 7-8). Despite all the challenges and complexities involved in this development, I can only rejoice at what God has done. I’m on the move again and it feels good.

    Still welling-up in me is this mysterious compassion mention in earlier postings. On Thursday, 22nd May I drafted a poem entitled ‘Something Human’ to describe this new development. It came to mind whilst I was scanning the GCN web site: –

    These were the men I saw: –
    Shaggy haired haired men with bushy mustaches and beards who looked as if they’d come from log cabins deep in he wilds of America
    Boyish well groomed young men clean shaven and intelligent looking who looked as if they were attending a fine arts collage
    Intellectual bespectacled men who looked as if they had strolled in from the halls of academia
    And finally, the fat flabby men who looked as if they’d had too many beers and burgers

    Men from every nation, every class and of every color were present, some were hopeful
    neophytes, others were grizzled cynics and some fighting a losing battle against despair

    These were the women I saw: –
    Cropped haired sporty military looking women in tea shirts and jeans who looked as if they’d jumped out of the cabin of a truck
    Glamorous, lip stick girly types with long hair and make up who looked as if they were going man-hunting at a night club
    Plump, rotund motherly types with smiling, bespectacled faces and conventional floral dresses who looked as if they were about to pop out to hang the washing
    And finally,the nervous thin women sporting a fragile smile

    Women from every nation, every class and of every color were present, some were hopeful nymphets, others were grumpy battleaxes and some possessed the defeated, insecure look that,’s come from many a broken affair

    Then there were the transgenders, few of whom were to be seen:-
    There were those who were brazen dolls
    There were those who were were goodness knows what
    And there those with a puzzled ‘I don’t know what I am’ look

    A new and tender compassion fills my heart
    As the scales of drop from my eyes
    A yearning to reach out to them begins to emerge
    For the first time in my life I see these people as being human,
    Yes actually human
    And possible recipients of a God-given redemption
    Lord forgive my previous blindness, Amen

    The next piece was more revelatory in nature. I suppose it can be classified as a commissioning revelation. Usually, I don’t share such pieces but this one has now received so much confirmation that I no longer hesitate to say that God spoke to me through it.Written at the same time as ‘Something Human’ it’s entitled ‘To a Despised people.’
    “Do not despise the people
    You’re being sent to
    Do not mock them
    Do not scorn them
    Do not view them as figures of fun
    For these are a hurt, fragile, wounded people
    Who often do not know who they are

    Then in my own mind
    I saw a huge rubbish dump
    The kind that one has in third world cities
    It reached so high that it almost blocked out the sun
    Containing rubbish of every type
    It was surrounded by flies and by scavenger birds of every description”

    “Is that all their sins oh Lord?’

    “No, just yours
    Now GO and be my faithful witness,
    Faithfully witness to the truth that
    Jesus Christ is the word made flesh (1 John 4:3)
    Who came to die to make a once and for all atonement for sin

    Now look back and what do you see?”

    “The rubbish dump has gone
    What I see now is a triangular shaped pool,
    Full of clean bubbling water”
    Just as I removed your sin from my sight
    So I want to remove the sin of those I send you to
    This I will accomplish for the glory of my great name.”

    “Is there anything else you wish to add oh lord?”

    “Just this, I will give you sufficient grace to fulfill
    The work of witness I’ve entrusted to you
    Through it I will confound the expectations of those
    Who profess to follow my name
    But show a hate-filled contempt for others
    My grace WILL reach out to the dark places
    Where many languish in despair”

    One thing which is currently happening is that I’m starting to see how much of my life has prepared me for this task of reaching out to a ‘despised people.’ I can’t go into detail here but a lot of past events and relationships are starting to make sense. Everything is clicking into place. It really does appear to be a case of Jeremiah 1:4, I seem predestined to accomplish this task. In the end when Christ through every conceivable method of guidance says ‘Go’ it is time to ‘Go.’ There can be no fooling around with the Lord.

    P.S. If you’re well enough I’d be interested to receive your response to the Samaritan piece when I’m next available. In the meantime all the best for you and your spouse.

    • Hello dear Raymond!
      I was incredibly touched by your most recent message. Of course there were also moments of great laughter (especially your physical descriptions of a certain website’s patrons, which strongly makes me want to copy and paste them as a text to Martyr 2 so when she glances at her phone in the work restroom, she will burst out with laughter and people will overhear her through the door and be perplexed. Haha! 🙂 ) But I must say that the portion about Jesus showing you the trash heap and your mission was downright divinely supernatural. I felt entranced if somehow put into a hypnotic state to see exactly what you saw. It was utterly profound and I thank you for sharing both this, and the answers that you have received from the questions.

      On a side note, Martyr 2 and I will hardly celebrate with wine at your absence, partly because we both do not partake in alcohol (due to me being a long-time recovering alcoholic), but also because we both massively enjoy your interactions and have grown in such faith at what you have received to tell us. I believe our meeting is of divine appointment and God will make a way for me to correspond with you on the heavier theological issues. I have always felt I needed “a bigger podium” to accomplish the bridge to the mainstream Christian community with the multi-sexual community, yet my current need to remain anonymous has stood in the way. I feel you are part of this plan that I have prayed for. As far as my surgery, I have seen the surgeon for consult, but am still waiting on insurance to approve it for them to make a settled appointment date. I am to return to work next week, but this may be halted if the surgery comes beforehand. I had expected this to be done already, but am still in waiting. In Yahweh’s perfect time it will come.

      As a personal update, God has been speaking to me as loudly as I can ever recall about prophecy after many prayers for His wisdom of understanding. This has been my most recent focus, as I have devoted my time, literally day and night, to immersing in the Scriptures of both the Old and New Testament prophets. Even in my sleep I listen to my audio Bible, and much connection and confirmation has recently been taking place. I have been prompted not to share the details of these things publicly on my website, as this will derail the focus of the assigned task at hand. Yet this task we take together is timed perfectly, as I know that a chance for the grace of salvation in Yeshua alone is needed now more than ever for the multi-sexual community so that all of the sheep of the flocks can be gathered before the appointed time.

      None the less, I can say that I believe that the Great Deception/Grand Delusion is already in the works (as the stage is setting) and if anything, the Christian multi-sexuals’ contribution will be martyrdom under a religious tyranny masked as the will of God, NOT an increase of acceptance of homosexuality by the man of Lawlessness. The execution will come not only for being Christian, but also for being homosexual. Let it be known that the “lawlessness” of the anti-Christ is not the obvious call to lawless self-pleasure (which is already present in all evils of humankind throughout time), but a “lawlessness” to Yahweh’s Holy Law in the exchange for a twisted set of laws that are masked as “holy laws.” The prophet Daniel reveals that the man of lawlessness “will intend to change times and laws, and they’ll be given into his control for a time, times, and half a time.” (Daniel 7:25). Unlike the satanic laws of Alester Crowley to “do what though wilt,” this has a strict set of religious laws to adhere to the one who has counterfeited the God of Abraham under a different name and is followed by his familiar false prophet that promotes him. Now more than ever, Christians must look to the original words of Scripture and ask for the Holy Spirit’s discernment and stop listening to that which makes them complacent to what’s being unveiled right before their very eyes. Yeshua warned in John 16:2,3, “The time is coming when those who kill you will think they are doing a holy service for God. This is because they have NEVER KNOWN the Father (Yahweh) or me (Yeshua).” May THESE WORDS be forever written upon your lips and heart: There is no God but YAHWEH and Yeshua is His Son! Amen!

      I regret to inform you that I am now suffering from quite a sharp tooth ache accompanied by major pain spasm in the upper right side of my body which is making me have difficulty writing at the moment. I do apologize for not responding much to what you have said yet. I am eager to respond to you further and will re-read and respond about the Samaritans as soon as I am able. I continue to be marveled by your words and revelations and sense with all certainty that God is in control and will accomplish great things through our work together and that of your venture with the others in the CMC. I hope you and Martyr enjoy your 3 week time and look forward to hearing from you soon! I’m also glad your mother is now settled in her new assisted living and always like to hear stories of her. We send much love to you and your family as always!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

  34. midrashcreed says:

    My wife has banished me to the back bedroom computer room so she can get on with the packing. I’ve been told in no uncertain terms to keep out of the way! Hence nothing better to do then talk to you 😦

    Anyway, I’ll now quickly answer some of the points you made. Please note that my time is limited, so I’ll have to be brief.

    “I believe our meeting is of divine appointment and God will make a way for me to correspond with you on the heavier theological issues.”

    Agreed! Although at your end health factors is an unknown variable and at my end family factors and the pressure of work

    I” have always felt I needed “a bigger podium” to accomplish the bridge to the mainstream Christian community with the multi-sexual community, yet my current need to remain anonymous has stood in the way. I feel you are part of this plan that I have prayed for.”

    My feelings exactly – there’s a VERY strong meeting of minds here. So long as both our spouses are happy about this I’m wondering whether there maybe some room for literary collaboration. A first joint work could be a semi-lighthearted dialogue along the lines of the book 84 Charing Cross Road by Helene Hanff http://www.amazon.com/Charing-Cross-Road-Helene-Hanff/dp/0140143505
    If that works out then we could move onto more theological material. We seem to make an odd but strangely complementary couple in the professional sense of course. I don’t see why we couldn’t work together. Martyr 1 senses we would make a good team. I have twice worked in a partnership basis before, (albeit with men) so I know the ups and downs of that road. By the way can Martyr 2 offer any practical skills that could help us? I’m sure she can provide you with the needed emotional support so that need not be my concern, praise the Lord!

    I am very aware that such a venture could be a big step for both of us AND OUR PARTNERS MUST BE HAPPY WITH IT, for it to continue. It is NOT my intention to create any sense of divided loyalties. What we need to do first is prayerfully think about it and see how things pan out with your health. As you gather I have a lot of skills to offer in this area but even so there will be a lot of matters to resolve and many details to be fine tuned. At this stage this offer is only provisional and no definite commitment should be made by either of us. You will correctly gauge that I like to be extremely professional and business like in my dealings. I’m a stickler on such matters.

    Oh by the way Martyr 1 has just swept in and has said that she’s happy with this offer. She even edited a few of my comments to make them more tactful. Bless her!

    “None the less, I can say that I believe that the Great Deception/Grand Delusion is already in the works (as the stage is setting) and if anything, the Christian multi-sexuals’ contribution will be martyrdom under a religious tyranny masked as the will of God, NOT an increase of acceptance of homosexuality by the man of Lawlessness. The execution will come not only for being Christian, but also for being homosexual.”

    I don’t see why our scenarios should be incompatible. The Christian multi-sexual community could easily divide into those who are ‘for’ and ‘against’ the anti-Christ. I could easily imagine a scenario akin to that of Nazi Germany in which the anti-Christ will first use (just as Hitler did Rohm’s SA) the multi-sexual community and then dispose of them when it’s expedient to do so. I fully agree with you that the Great deception is already at work.

    Sorry to hear about your ongoing health problems. We will of course continue to pray for you. In turn, I’d like you to pray that the Lord safeguards our property during the holiday – both that which we’ll carry around with us and also the material at home. My eldest son will be looking after the house and keeping our misery puss company.

    Overall, I think it’s good that we have a good break from one another. We need time to pause and take stock of matters. I will be in a position to respond to any contact until around the second week of September.

  35. midrashcreed says:

    Dear Moanti,

    In my last posting, I suggested that there might be potential for some form of literary collaboration between us. In this post I will spell out in more detail what I had in mind in order to help you decide whether the respective visions we have for our work are compatible. If not we can remain friends while plowing our own distinctive furrows. If however they are compatible we should take things gradually starting with the simple things first and then moving onto more complex pieces of literature later if there are unmistakeable signs of divine blessing. It would be a case of ‘baby steps’ first.

    To begin with all it would involve would be a matter of me re-drafting a of twelve interactive gospel notes while your role would be to provide in-depth bible expositions on the themes handled by these notes. The overall structure would be: –
    Gospel Teaching Summary One: The God-Centred Gospel
    In-depth bible exposition
    Gospel Teaching Summary Two: Justification
    In-depth bible exposition
    Gospel Teaching Summary Three: Justifying Faith
    In-depth bible exposition
    Gospel Teaching Summary Four: God-Centred Preaching And Witnessing
    In-depth bible exposition
    Gospel Teaching Summary Five: Effective Gospel Sharing
    In-depth bible exposition
    Gospel Teaching Summary Six: The Man-Centred Gospel
    In-depth bible exposition
    Gospel Teaching Summary Seven: Man-Centred Preaching And Witnessing
    In-depth bible exposition
    Gospel Teaching Summary Eight: Satanic Opposition To The Gospel
    In-depth bible exposition
    Gospel Teaching Summary Nine: The Cross Of Jesus: An Antidote To Spiritual Deception
    In-depth bible exposition
    Gospel Teaching Summary Ten: A Biblical Summary Of The Atonement
    Gospel Teaching Summary Eleven: The Greatest Victory Ever Won
    In-depth bible exposition
    Gospel Teaching Summary Twelve: The Pivot Of Faith
    In-depth bible exposition

    For the first year or two very little will appear to happen. You will continue your usual website bible studies (but based on the themes I’ve provided) while I will persuade my drudge to update proof read my existing notes. I will also need your help to adapt them to the needs of the Christian Multi-sexual Community and add some interactive questions. If this endeavour is blessed by God we can then prayerfully think about collaborating over more challenging pieces of work. But simple ‘baby steps’ will do for now. This will provide the time needed to discern whether we can actually work together. I’m sure that working with a Californian based lesbian represents a new start for me and this explains why I think a cautious and slow beginning would be best for us.

    In terms of skill-base and personality there’s a broad compatibility. Where you can provide a route into the American multi-sexual market with your empathetic touchy-feely approach I can provide hard-headed business skills and an objective analytical one that would appeal to intellectuals. It would be like Bones working with Dr Spock in the first star track series. (No, I don’t have pointy ears by the way.) Our constant aim will be to reach open minded members of the multi-sexual community with the Gospel of Jesus Christ – thereby doing out bit to fulfil His great commission, (Matthew 28:19f.) The aim is NOT to make lots of money but good stewardship should avoid financial loss.

    Obviously, beyond the obvious ones of health and other commitments there are issues to consider before embarking on this venture. Like you I am torn between the desire to remain anonymous and the desire to gain a far higher profile. Are these desires incompatible? From previous experience I am aware that even a modest amount of recognition creates problems like mentally ill people ringing you late at night. Indeed, fame is a two edged sword that can cut those who wield it. For instance how would we feel if we became a double act at a GCN Conference? (Who would be Laurel and who would be Hardy?) Also how would our spouses feel about such recognition? Would a strain be placed on our relationships? On the other hand is it honouring to God to continue to languish in a relative ineffectual obscurity that does nothing for the Gospel? Wouldn’t such an obscurity represent a waste of the talents He’s given? Picking our way through such issues would require immense grace and wisdom.

    I am fully aware that to the wider Christian Community any collaboration between a lesbian (with health issues) and a grumpy Conservative Christian male (with church issues) could appear to be highly dubious if not downright sleazy. Outsiders would think we were mad. But we can draw great comfort from the way God can use weak and broken people to fulfill his purposes. After all how many hero’s of faith in the bible would one like to know on a close personal basis? Moreover, if God can use too old whores like Rahab to help His people enter the Promised Land (Joshua 2), why can’t He use us? After all, Christianity is about grace not respectability. In principle I have the belief that He CAN do this: the question is ‘does He WANT to do this?’ Perhaps we won’t find out without trying.

    Hence, I formally invite you to consider such collaboration. Of course if health considerations intrude I will understand and will accept your reasons for backing away. What I don’t want you to feel is under any sense of pressure. That would be unfair. However for now I believe there is potential for some kind of collaboration as we appear to complement each other so well. You are of course very welcome to get back to me with any questions before making up your mind.
    On a social note my wife and I had a marvelous two weeks visiting Florence and Venice. She tolerated all my endlessly fascinating history lectures and nobly resisted the temptation to kick me into the lagoon of Venice when I went on too much. However we got covered in mosquito bites. In my case they were so severe that I’d think a picture of my face would frighten many of the men on GCN into heterosexuality. My nose and ears came up like red balloons. My wife loved the medical history side of things and enjoyed taking pictures of skulls and pickled human dwarfs in a medical museum. A visit to the human dissection amphitheatre at Padua University was her highlight. For me it was seeing where the Catholic reformer Girolamo Savonarola (1452-1498) was burnt at the stake in Florence. What a brave man he was! As for the artwork – stunning we actually saw Michelangelo (1475-1564) statue of David. Whilst gawping at it I sighed “I wish I had Michelangelo’s genius” to which my wife replied “I wish you had David’s physique.” Later I had to take delete a close-up photograph she’d taken of David’s naughty bits. In total 1,120 photographs were taken mainly by my wife. Some were of our mosquito bites!

    Things on GCN appear to have got off to a rip-roaring start. Already a marvelous opportunity to witness the benefits of Christ’s atonement to a rather distressed man has emerged. There was even a thread on mosquitoes to comment on! Its early days, but already I seem able to strike a rapport with some of the people there. This ability was not at all in evidence a few months ago. There’s also a strange yearning to reach out to and engage with Christian Multi-sexuals. Florence in particular gave a valuable historical insight into this issue. However I better stop otherwise it will be your turn to receive the history lecture. (Your spouse could dutifully take notes. Send her our regards.) Both my wife and I send you our best wishes in the Lord and we fervently hope that your health has improved.

  36. midrashcreed says:

    Both my wife and I ask are you alright and how is your health? yours with concern

    • Hello there Raymond!
      Please forging me for my extended absence. My surgery came suddenly without much warning or planning to let you know. The pain of it has been much greater than anticipated, even with medicated pain management. This is the first day I have felt well enough to read your comments and post on the internet. I will certainly write more in the days to come when I am feeling less pain and more clear headed. I am continuing to pray about this collaboration idea and will let you know when I feel at peace about a decision. There are some professional hurdles that coincide in the next 2 years that could make my focus more difficult, but I feel if we work slowly, this could be a reality. Either way, I know that God will provide us with His knowledge to achieve His Will through us and I would be surprised if we didn’t have some level of collaboration on the project. I will take a closer look at your outline when I’m feeling a bit better, as I’m sure I’ll have questions. Forgive me for my health impairment. Hopefully I will be recovering sooner rather than later, God willing. Thanks for your prayers and support and I’m truly sorry if I worried you.
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

  37. midrashcreed says:

    Both my wife and I were thoroughly delighted to hear from you. We’re pleased you’re on the road to recovery albeit slowly. My other half is especially glad we’re back in contact. (She was getting too many lectures from me, especially in Italy) Like you, I too have many professional obligations to complete over the next two years and a Family History to Complete. Our respective situations would suggest that a gentle, gradual approach would be the best one’s to follow, Anyway we’ll leave off for now. I’ll fill you in with the latest developments at GCN when you’re up to it.

    For your spouses sake we hope you are keeping even tempered in this situation and that you’ve not ended up like this lady
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/theatre/theatre-features/7924819/Corrie-on-stage-hairnets-to-gay-kisses.html
    or that your spouse has not ended up like this one

  38. midrashcreed says:

    Dear Moanti,
    Just a brief post (on the 39th anniversary of my conversion to Christianity) to ask whether you are alright. I know after an operation like yours there’s a lot of catching up to do but it has now been over a month since you posted anything and both my wife and I are concerned.

    • Hello there Raymond!
      I was just thinking about you and have wanted to write you for some time now and was planning on writing you a quick note today and suddenly saw you left a comment. I apologize again for worrying you and your wife. Amongst my recovery from surgery, I have had to deal with many unavoidable distractions that have put my brain in an exhaustion mode. Oh how much I need a real vacation, not just unpaid time off of work (with an unfortunate rejection of state disability pay) limping around the house like an 80 year old women in my pajamas.

      Anyway, I did most certainly want to ask you more questions about the book. I have been praying about this and I feel I need more info. Again, I think the biggest hurdle would be coinciding professional commitments, and any pain issues that come about, and even my knack for attracting friends with pressing or life-threatening issues (who tend to call in crisis unexpectedly for hours.) But my sense is still that it can all be done if it’s in God’s Will, as He’s certainly had to “work with” more difficult prospects to get His Word out through people.

      But before I fully commit to such a venture, please explain to me in what way and to what extent the multi-sexual issue would be incorporated into this text? I am in no way a Biblical scholar, but could offer my insights on your notes. But I guess I am unclear on what you would require as “in-depth Biblical expositions” on these notes. Is this to be openly done from a multi-sexual Christian perspective and how it coincides with the Gospel message? I am very keen on the idea… I only wish it was feasible for me to quit my job for a few years and focus all of my time on it. Haha. But if it could be done in baby-steps, I’m sure The Lord would provide a way for everything to get done in His time. My sense is that He wants to use this future text to gather His strayed sheep before the appointed time. So please let me know more about this…

      On a personal note, I am finally beginning to feel better this week and am returning to work, although I still continue to have some of the symptoms that the operation was supposed to fix. But we’ll see in time how this will improve. All I know is that I never want to go under the knife again unless it’s to be beheaded by workers of the antichrist for rejecting The Beast religion. Ok, that sounds drastic, but I’m completely serious! Haha. (How crazy does that sound?) Anyway, I will talk to you again soon!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti
      P.S. How is Martyr, your mother and your grumpy cat doing?

  39. midrashcreed says:

    Dear M,

    The first message is from my wife who sends her love and sorry to hear about your illness. She hopes that our exchanges are not another burden for you given your ill health. She hopes your partner is bearing up to the strain. Like me she feels at a loss as to how we should respond.Maybe through this affliction our relationship is moving onto a more mature stage of development. With regards to the writing it doesn’t involve as much commitment as you may envisage. All it would involve over the next couple of years is you continuing with your bible studies but only around the twelve gospel themes I outlined earlier. For you, it would be more of the same but with a more structured emphasis. It will however be your role to relate the Gospel to the Multi-sexual community. I don’t envisage each of your bible studies being more 4 to 6 pages long. I’m NOT looking for a theological magnum-opus. My role would be draft and re-draft my Gospel notes and provide a devotional emphasis through prayers and poetry. Given my other commitments I envisage that it would be a couple of years before we would be ready to publish in both book and electronic form. I could take care of that side of things so your role will be confined to checking drafts. In addition, we could continue our dialogue because I’m sure the stimulus we provide to one another could spillover to benefit other parties and the fact that we are in dialogue like this could witness to the fact that Conservative Christians and Multi-sexuals can engaged in civilized exchanges even when there areas of disagreement exist. It could show that there is a positive alternative to all the hatred that exists. Your main priority for now is recovery, so all you need do for now is pray about the matters I’ve raised in this and previous posts. Please do NOT feel under any sense of pressure.

    At present I’m on a very steep learning curve about the Multi-sexual issue. This is especially the case on GCN where you’ll see me under the name of Homorealist.Only now are things now beginning to settle into a routine in which I focus my efforts during the weekend. My involvement here has unleashed energies I didn’t think I’d had. The level of spiritual rejuvenation has been such that at times I’ve felt like an eighteen or nineteen year old inside. My youth has been renewed. At present my main feeling is still one of awe at what God has done. There’s a determination to use the one effective weapon I have which is the Gospel. All other weapons have failed to be effective.

    On one thread where there’s been a wonderful opportunity to testify to Christ’s resurrection. I’ve also been in contact with a 70 year old Italian American who likes playing Bridge. I also hope to use poetry as another means of outreach. Nearer home, I had early a week last Sunday evening, an interesting encounter with four young multi-sexuals from a nearby literary festival (One male, two female and one torn between the two sexes). The one torn between two sexes had seen me perform at a place I call ‘The Dive’ and thought I was ‘good.’ Soon after this complement one of the women divulged that this revolution is making inroads into another large monotheistic faith although it’s all kept covered up. (Her mother knows about her orientation but not her father. Aged twenty-three she’d first kissed a girl when aged nine and had ‘come out’ when aged fifteen.) The extent of this revolution is breath taking. It’s not simply a Western thing it’s a global phenomena. A major paradigm shift is taking place in the area of sexual identity. I find that I get on rather well with Multi-sexual performance artists. They stimulate my creativity.

    My wife has attracted some admirers from the Multi-sexual Christian scene. Photographs she’d taken of sunsets in Florence and Venice drew a good response (including from a character I call ‘The Elf’). One guy remarked how talented she was and suggested that I should go out and treat her. My response was to say I’d have to take a crowbar to my wallet or send him an invoice. We had a rather good bantering session over this matter. Having a sense of humor, does help in this area. How the ‘better half’ will feel about being a ‘mother figure’ to male Gays remains to be seen! I do see the comical aspect to it. However, please Continue to pray – pray especially that the gospel will go out and for discernment about the contacts that made. A week last Wednesday there was something of a backlash that involved me wasting much of the day having to resolve three to four serious administrative problems. (I won’t bore you with the details.) At present I feel as if I’m surfing a tidal wave, it’s exhilarating but also dangerous. Your advice about coming in as a questioner has proved to be right and on GCN I’ve initiated a couple of discussion threads that provoked some response. I’ve also done quite a lot of reading with Bernadette Barton’s pray the Gay Away being the latest offering. I’ve also ordered Kathy Baldock’s book as well. You will find under the title ‘Much to Chu on’ and pen name Raymond Creed my review of Jeffrey Chu’s ‘Does Jesus Love me?’ it’s at http://www.amazon.com/ss/customer-reviews/0062049739/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

    Elsewhere I’ve come across some very sad cases, especially in relation to Mixed Orientation Marriages. The most tragic aspect has been seeing the number of church-based marriages that have been based on a lie. One case is of a ‘suppressed’ homosexual retired Baptist marriage ‘in love’ with another man. Married for 43 years he now has to hoist his wife in and out of bed as she’s been ill with MS for 19 years. (The other man has had the decency to tell him to stick with his wife.) He describes everyday of his marriage as ‘living a lie. ‘ What an indictment. However, that’s topped by an 85 year old women who’s ‘come out as Gay after 56 years of marriage to a man she’s admits is ‘a wonderful husband.’ Her advice to young girls is not to make her mistake of marriage. Imagine being told after that time period, ‘sorry love, it’s all been a mistake.’ The man whose wife came out after 34 years have before their therapist vowed to stay together until they find their true love. Generally, many of these problems have arisen because the parties involved were under pressure to marry at a young age.

    Nor is such sad scenarios confined to the USA, in the UK an 81 year old man with three grown children and four grand children has had on the NHS a £4,000 operation to change his gender. His now divorced wife didn’t know about his orientation until 11 years ago. As my wife remarked ‘couldn’t he have let bygones be bygones.’ Where younger couples with children are involved I have felt obliged to step in. Some of the issues have been of mind bending complexity. What I have found is that ‘truth will out’ when a marriage has been based on some form of deceit. The errors of one’s youth do tend to emerge in one’s old age.

    On a more positive note the Gospel has gone out twice in recent days and resources built up during the days of ITS have been invaluable. In my one case my poetry opened the door to a very constructive witness. I feel as if I’m holding a bright torch while submerged in some very dark and dirty waters. Yet I rejoice because of the real work has been doing. I’ve also found some measure of healing from the grief caused by my forty year failure with the churches. Contacts with the local Baptist pastor also continue to be constructive although he doesn’t quite grasp the full extent of what’s happening.

    In professional and publication terms things have moved on. One agency doubled my hours of working for them. Under the name of Raymond creed I now have 55 items on Amazon Kindle. Since the end of July I’ve made a total of 36 sales from America, Europe and Australia. However, I’ve been having problems with the American Inland revenue Service whose stupidity has had me pulling my hair our. I’ve also released in electronic form under the name of Leo Arland my first collection of poetry. Entitled ‘Restless Ashes’ it includes the material that was provoked by my visit to Auschwitz just over three years ago. (It still seems like yesterday.) My book ‘Hoofbeats of the Apocalypse’ could be attracting a review from a UK party who sends reviews to a number of poetry magazines including one in India.

    My Mother has settled well in her new home and has made many friends. I saw her with one 85 year old lady who recounted in great and gory detail the deaths of her two husbands and two stepsons. My mother relished the drama and seemed to find my company rather boring so I responded by burying my head in a Sunday Times newspaper.. She does ask after you and I suspect all your afflictions will give her something else to talk about. Yet in a subsequent meeting she chided me for talking too much about death! My response was to fall silent and pretend to measure her up for her coffin! She replied with a slap on my wrist! However, recently she mentioned how moved she’d been by some hymns she’d heard sang by a group from our local Baptist Church. She actually recalled some of their words with ‘How Great Thou Art’ being her favorite. This is the first chink of spiritual light I’ve seen in my mother since the 1970s.Do continue to pray for her if your are able. As for our cat he continues to be as grumpy as ever. There’s no change there!

    Anyway, take care. It’s been good to hear from you on the 39th anniversary of my conversion to Christ. Goodbye and God bless. Hope you haven’t found this post to be too long in your present condition.Give our regards to your ‘Mrs!’

  40. midrashcreed says:

    Dear Moanti,

    As I’m in no position to send and your spouse a Christmas Card I’d thought I’d enclose a copy of my latest article ‘God’s Best Christmas present’ instead. Over the last several weeks, I’ve felt it right to wait and give you space to sort things out at your end. Please let us know how you’re getting on. I visited my mother today and she asked after you. She has recently celebrated her 91st birthday.. My wife and I have been very busy having to cope with among other things a leaking garage roof and cracks in the wall of our modest flat. Anyway have a Christ filled Christmas. Maybe we can catch up on news later.

    God’s Best Christmas Present

    Minding the Gap

    Sometimes, amidst the hustle and bustle of entering a crowded London tube (underground train) passengers can hears a recorded male voice warn in polite but authoritative terms ‘mind the gap.’ The intention behind this warning is to prevent them from trapping their feet between the platform edge and a newly arrived train. Only when they’ve boarded it can they travel safely to their respective destinations However, first they need to be made aware that a dangerous gap does exist. A parallel situation occurs in our relationship with God; we need first to be aware that a dangerous gap exists between us and our maker before discovering how it may be crossed. Only after this has been done can we hope to enjoy a real, loving relationship with Him.

    Hence this piece explores two main themes; the first of these is the presence of an infinitely large gap between God and us while the second is the way God Himself crosses the gap through the incarnation. This was the process He humbled Himself became in order to become a perfect man so He could lovingly offer an unblemished sacrifice that delivered us from Satan’s grasp, freed us from the curse of the Mosaic Law and propitiated (fully pacified) Gods justified wrath against human sin, (Philippians 2:4-11). As it states in I John 2:2 “He [Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

    In passing it must be stated that the biblical teaching of the incarnation is closely linked to its revelation that God consists of three equally divine persons (known as the ‘Father,’ ‘Son’ and ‘Holy Spirit’) who are so strongly bound together in love that it’s fitting to believe that there is one God not three. Thus we can speak of ‘him’ rather than ‘them.’ This is implied in the Hebrew meaning of the word ‘one’ as in one God in Deuteronomy 6:4. The word used is ‘Echad’ meaning complex, compound or unified oneness rather than ‘Yachid meaning elemental, indissoluble, can’t be broken down oneness. (‘Echad’ is also used to denote the ‘oneness’ of a marriage relationship.) So the incarnation can be seen as that event (or series of events) whereby out of a perfect love for his Father (and also for a lost human race), God the Son consented to becoming a perfect human being by the agency of God the Holy Spirit. In that capacity He could offer a ‘once and for all’ perfect sacrifice that atoned for (covered, removed from God’s sight) every one of our sins, (Hebrews 4:15). The biblical revelation of the incarnation is indissolubly linked to its revelation of the Divine Trinity. This was a point grasped by Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria (c297-363AD) in his masterly treatise ‘On the Incarnation’ written in about 318AD for the benefit of a certain Marcarius who’d just become a believer. Thoroughly bible based it was a remarkable work for a man in his early twenties.

    Measuring the Gap

    One thing I’ve learnt in nearly four decades of being a Christian believer is that the number one tragedy facing humanity is its alienation (hostile estrangement and separation) from God. To visit Auschwitz is to see what such alienation can mean and also to learn how justified God’s wrath against human depravity can be. Sin is everywhere, infecting every relationship, every human activity and the deepest recesses of our personality. In essence sin is that rebellious, self-centred lawlessness that causes us to consistently fall short of God’s perfect standards as revealed in scripture. It can be viewed as an allergy to God syndrome for our ‘natural’ reaction to Him is one of antagonism; this may be expressed in either a scornful disbelief or a lazy minded indifference. One common result of sin is an inner restlessness that prompts us to obsessively look for substitutes to replace the deity we have habitually spurned. As Augustine (354-430AD) famously put it, “our heart is restless until it finds its rest in thee.” Actually it’s worse than that; for our hearts are not only restless; but idolatrous, wayward and capable of any amount of self-deception. They are also hearts that are fatally receptive to the enticements of the evil one. As Jeremiah 17:9 with grim realism put it, “The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it.” We ignore such warnings to our own great peril.

    A further sense of hopelessness is created when we consider the nature of God. By definition God is utterly pure and perfect in every way. This means He cannot abide any trace of imperfection in His creation for to do so would cause him to be less than perfect and thereby cease being God. This perfection explains why He can only ever react to imperfection with anger, judgement and eternal banishment from His presence. Perhaps Lucifer realized this when he precipitated first the fall of angels and then of man. In his pride he may have reckoned that he was placing God in a cruel dilemma of either destroying the creation he loved or tolerating imperfection but at the price of losing His deity. However, rather like the Master in Doctor Who, this would be another one of his grand schemes that would backfire.

    A realization of the unlimited gulf existing between God and humanity is highlighted by the hypothetical case of a Saintly Rabbi living under the Mosaic Law. It may be helpful to think of him as being like Nicodemus whom Jesus encountered in John 3. Like Nicodemus he’d be a pillar of the community doing many works of charity and striving manfully to keep every command of the law. Thoroughly hetero-sexual, he’s only ever had full relations with his wife of over fifty years. Never once has he considered being unfaithful. Then, for one fleeting second he casts a ‘covetous’ eye on a serving girl and as a result breaks the command “You shall not covert …” (Exodus 20:17 & Deuteronomy 5:21). In God’s eyes he’s broken the whole law, (James 2:10). When this happens he comes under the laws condemnation and is ruined for eternity. His slight imperfection will cause him to be banished forever from God’s presence. This scenario highlights the fact that divine perfection can never tolerate even for one trillionth of a second any form of imperfection. The response always has to be one of judgement and eternal banishment. From a divine perspective the ‘good’ rabbi is just as doomed as a child sacrificing Satanist. Both alike are unredeemed sinners heading for eternal loss. Isaiah 64:6 warns that in God’s eyes all our righteousness is like the filthy, puss covered rags used to cover the sores of lepers. In other words it’s utterly nauseous and disgusting in His sight. From this imagery we can deduce that religion has never saved anyone.

    In addition, this example highlights the futility of man-made attempts to close the gap through good works, ritual practices and esoteric spiritualities. These can be especially dangerous for they appear to offer a solution when they don’t. They circumvent the grim reality that we can no more get to God then walk to the moon backwards or swim on the surface of the sun. The gulf between God and humanity is not just huge it’s infinite. To realize this is to lose faith in ourselves and in our capacity to ever please our Creator. Later discussion will suggest that’s precisely where we need to be.

    Bridging the Gap

    It all looks pretty hopeless doesn’t it? The reality is that it IS hopeless, utterly hopeless. In our natural condition we have no capacity to relate to God and in many cases we don’t even want to relate to Him. Sin has got into everything and permeated our most intimate relationships. Regardless of our sexual orientation we are all wrecked sinners and an infinite gulf exists between us and God. Worst of all there seems that there’s no way to bridge the gap between ourselves and our maker. Thankfully, we were not left to flounder in ‘sin and natures night.’ In his perfect wisdom God appointed a perfect way of salvation (rescue from sin and its ruinous consequences) that perfectly fulfilled all the requirements of the Mosaic Law. Implicit here is the mystery of the incarnation. As was stated earlier, this involved God the Son suspending all His divine privileges and emptying Himself to become a slave ‘born in the likeness of men’ so that he could become obedient “until death on the cross,” (Philippians 2:7-8). The wonder of the incarnation is enhanced when we realize that He who’d formed all of creation not only became a helpless human baby but a tiny fertilized egg cell in a Virgins womb. If this was not the case how could our Lord identify with every human experience? Also, if the Virgin Conception was a complete myth then wouldn’t our Lord have inherited human sin and been incapable of offering the unblemished sacrifice needed to deal with sin? Amply demonstrated at the Virgin Conception was divine humility which refers to God’s willingness to put aside His glorious majesty in order to become weak and vulnerable This attribute highlights His ability to restrain and humble Himself to in order to identify with His Creation and all the sufferings within it. Motivating the incarnation was a love so unfathomable, so immense and so great that it’s beyond human comprehension, (John 3:16). The very thought can fill us with a sense of awe and joy.

    The only person capable of bridging the infinite gap between God and humanity is a person who himself is infinitely divine yet also a limited human being who’s known temptation and frailty. Who else but God Himself could bridge this gap and who else had the capacity to represent humanity before God but someone who was fully human? Only a person who was fully divine and a complete but sinless human being could offer the unblemished blood sacrifice needed pacify God’s furious wrath against sin and secure deliverance from evil. As Bishop Athanasius implied if Jesus wasn’t fully God how could He bridge the infinite gap between God and humanity; but if he wasn’t fully human how could he represent humanity before God as a mediating High priest? If either of these qualities were missing He’d be an utterly useless saviour and we would still be dead in our sins. The incarnation however was not a process whereby God shed his divinity to become man; rather, it was God the Son willingly restraining His Deity in order to accomplish a redemptive purpose that can benefit open minded people of different sexual orientations. Indeed if Jesus wasn’t fully divine we’d be worshipping a being who was less then God and that would be idolatry. Rather than lose ourselves in these theological bypaths it is far better to see the incarnation as God’s best present to a ruined humanity. To accept this is to be filled with joy and hope.

    Closing the Gap

    In order to benefit from what the incarnation achieved all we need do is through a simple act of faith (dependent trust) believe that Jesus as perfect God and perfect man offered a perfect sacrifice for all our sins before rising from the dead three days later. Here we can be encouraged from the promise of Romans 10:9 which states “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you shall be saved.” It is through a simple but wholehearted faith that God declares us righteous (acceptable to and in a right relationship with Him). Quite miraculously, the apparently infinite gap between us and Him is closed. This is something that applies to every human being regardless of their sexual orientation. Should true faith be lacking then we can always cry out “Lord help me in my unbelief” (Mark 9:24) and in due time the faith we need will be supplied.

    In the end, the only real division that matters is not between LGBT and ‘straight’ but rather is between those who are reconciled to God through faith in Jesus and those who are not. The gifts of acceptance, forgiveness, spiritual re-birth and a real relationship with God are open to all who believe no matter what their sexuality. In the end what will decide our eternal destiny is not our sexual orientation but our spiritual orientation whether it’s ‘for’ or ‘against’ God. That is the real message of Christmas and if anyone benefits from it during this time of year they will have received the best Christmas present, i.e. acceptance by God and eternal life in Jesus. This applies no matter how wretched their circumstances maybe. Things may have fallen apart for some of you but there’s still possibility of entering a real relationship with God for it is He who can restore the years the locusts have devoured, (Joel 2:25).

    Anyway a Merry Christmas to all readers and I hope you manage to avoid the vice of gluttony . I intend to spend much of the season in the company of Mr Bonhoeffer courtesy of his biographer Charles Marsh. I will as usual be chided for being anti-social.

    Reference

    St Athanasius (1979) On the Incarnation: The Treatise deIncarnatioverbiDei A. R. Mowbray & Co Ltd

    • Dearest Raymond,
      Thank you for your words. I will read this with more attention after work, God willing. I am astounded by the amount of distraction that has been preventing me from a proper response to you. Although I have been unable to write lately, I have kept you and your family close in my mind and in my prayers as well as your proposition. Things have been such a roller coaster of events it’s been difficult to focus. I will have some time off around the holidays to sit down and write more… Please continue to pray for me, and for me to have clarity and a sound mind. I have been going through a great deal of stress since my operation a few months back, but pray that things normalize soon. I love you and your family and keep you close to my heart. I will write again as soon as I’m able. I must rush off to work now.
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti
      P.S. Aside from personal distractions, I’ve also been inundated with electronic difficulties with my WordPress app and email… I will be getting a new device soon, so I hope to have less glitches.

  41. midrashcreed says:

    Great to hear from you!!! My mother especially was getting worried but guessed that health was a problem. I’ve been immersed at GCN but you can follow my progress there by following my ‘Homorealist’ contributions. Cant stop for long as I’m away tomorrow to spend a few days in London with ‘she who has to be obeyed.’ We’re there until Christmas Eve. Look forward to hearing from you soon. I can’t help wondering whether the devil has been trying to disrupt things between us. But let’s leave that speculation to one side. On a lighter note I enclose my latest poem ‘US Tourists Fly into Town.’ It’s based on observations I made of American tourists whilst in Italy. Show it to your ‘Mrs’ if you like. Now sit back, read and enjoy!

    Chorus
    Goin’ to tour all day
    Goin’ to tour all night
    Wishing to see every site
    Whilst spending their hard earned pay

    Verses

    US tourists have flown into town
    Doo-da, Doo-da
    Their aeroplane has now touched down
    Oh, de doo-da day

    They wish they could sing this song
    Doo-da, Doo-da
    But their journey has just been far too long
    Oh, de doo-da day

    Endless coach loads flood into the city
    Doo-da, Doo-da
    An Italian guide shrugs in self-pity
    Oh, de doo-da day

    Around old ruins they rush to and fro
    Doo-da, Doo-da
    With tired children in their tow
    Oh, de doo-da day

    Scurrying and hurrying they dash all around
    Doo-da, Doo-da
    Eagerly hoping something new will be found!
    Oh, de doo-da day

    They move with the speed of an air force jet
    Doo-da, Doo-da
    Using the latest ‘apps’ to remain on the ‘Net’
    Oh, de doo-da day

    Endless photographs are being taken
    Doo-da, Doo-da
    Many are ‘selfies’ if I’m not mistaken
    Oh, de doo-da day

    Outside a museum I could see them crowd
    Doo-da, Doo-da
    Having to wait made them oh so loud!
    Oh, de doo-da day

    I heard them noisily and raucously complain
    Doo-da, Doo-da
    A helpless attendant they decided to blame
    Oh, de doo-da day

    In their manner they were oh so abrupt
    Doo-da, Doo-da
    Some looked like they were about to erupt
    Oh, de doo-da day

    At last these tourists all do file in
    Doo-da, Doo-da
    Yet from within they create a din
    Oh, de doo-da day

    Back onto the coach they all decide to rush
    Doo-da, Doo-da
    Their tacky souvenirs helped to cause a crush
    Oh, de doo-da day

    A frustrated driver shouts and waves his arms
    Doo-da, Doo-da
    As raucous ladies show of their trinket charms
    Oh, de doo-da day

    To another destination they will all soon fly
    Doo-da, Doo-da
    The patience of countless others they will surely try
    Oh, de doo-da day

    Goin’ to tour all day
    Goin’ to tour all night
    Wishing to see every site
    Whilst spending their hard earned pay

  42. midrashcreed says:

    Dear Moanti,

    By the time you read this post I should be flying off to Turkey with my youngest son to see various historical sites like Ephesus and Pergamum. (Your prayers for our safety and protection in Turkey would be appreciated.) We are not due to return from this educational visit until late Monday 9th February. I believe that this interlude will give you time to discern where you think our association should be going. Growing professional commitments at my end are forcing me to follow a very definite set of priorities. I think the same could also apply to you. This suggests that we should not rush into any major literary endeavour. In that area I’ve got enough on preparing my family History Publication. In trial paperback book form it’s so far come to 666 pages. (Please don’t laugh!) It will need several proof reads and some re-drafting before it’s ready for publication. As far as I see, it these developments are pressurizing us to chose between one of the following options four options.

    Option 1: Gently follow the original plan of gradually building up Gospel material over the next two to three years.

    Option 2: Focus on publishing the dialogues we had last years under the title of ‘Reaching Across the Chasm’ Any proof reading could be done by my ‘Mrs’ and I could arrange things like cover design and print on demand and kindle publication, which I’ve often done before.

    Option 3: Maintain a looser contact in which I will reserve the discussion of harder issue which wouldn’t be acceptable on GCN

    Option 4: Decide our contact was appropriate only for a ‘season’ say goodbye and move on.

    For what it’s worth my gut instinct suggests that there is potential for some form of fruitful collaboration between us but that it would be necessary to proceed very slowly, especially in light of your health issues. I have warmly appreciated our friendship. My wife thinks we do each other good. However, that is something that both you and your spouse need to will need to recognize. Should this recognition be lacking then option 4 will have to be implemented. I will assume that you have firmly decided on it should there be is no response by the time I return from Turkey. As stated before, circumstances are forcing me to prioritize my commitments. In such an eventually I will leave a grand final farewell and move on.

    At present things have taking off in the GCN area but you can follow my progress there by following the ‘Homorealist’ postings of which there are a many. One of the most the most recent thread I put up was on the lessons we can learn from Auschwitz. Also showing signs of growth is my electronic publication. I’ve made 11 sales this month on Amazon kindle and even 2 sales on Smashwords. A local Community magazine has also expressed interest in my poetry. However, Christmas and the New Year were blighted by a savage does of flu lasting until the middle of this month. On Christmas day all I could do was lie on a sofa and plough through Charles Marsh’s excellent biography of the German Martyr Dietrich Bonhoeffer. My indisposition provided an excellent excuse retire from the forced festivities and enjoy being thoroughly anti-social.
    Despite this affliction, I managed to stagger through a private prayer retreat held at the beginning of this month. During it I studied Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. I also prayed a lot about our association during that time and this posting is one result of those prayers. I prayed a lot for the Christian Multi-sexual Community in general and that the Lord would use my creative and analytical skills to be a source of blessing to that community.

    My 91 year old mother has perked-up of late and has expressed a desire to see the next general election scheduled for May. That is a good sign in a woman of her age. She’s very glad to see that she come to occupy a staring roll in my Family History and that her story will be passed on to future generations. To see her sit up in her bedroom chair and finger through its pages with rapt attention was a very moving experience. Whenever I visit her I either read extracts from it or from my poems which she says are ‘very good.’ Sometimes we banter and joke. When she had another fall recently I gently chided by saying “I know you like the family history but I didn’t expect to like it so much that you wanted to meet your ancestors right now.” I’ve asked her to try and arrange a good death bed scene as that would help sell copies of the history. “I’ll do my best” was her reply. Other family members wonder how I get away with this approach but it does stimulate her and keep the brain cells ticking. She sometimes gives me good feedback on my work. The visits I have with are very precious. I always come away feeling refreshed. Already they are providing many happy memories.

    Any must fly, both metaphorically and literally!

    • Dear Raymond,
      I wanted to get this out to you as swiftly as possible, although this will be a short reply, as I’m already almost running late for an engagement…. But I feel this takes precedence to not only write you back before you come home from Turkey, but before you even arrive. I most certainly would NOT want to take Option 4. I know that we wrote much more frequently in the past and things have been slow on my end in regards to replying to you. Due to the non-confidential nature of posting this publicly online, I can’t state all of what’s been happening in my life for the past few months, but I will say it’s been a whirlwind of struggles that almost make me wonder if it’s as spiritual attack of some sort. In a general sense, there have been many problems within my immediate family (not with my spouse) which I have been put in the unlucky position to attempt to mediate. It’s been overwhelming and has even made me feel like I’m losing my memory. On top of this have been massive amounts of struggles with friends and I seem to be the one to come to with these issues. Lastly, my work schedule has been more hectic as I’ve had to take on more hours and more intense positions. Not to mention much physical pain struggles. So with all these things combined, I have been so absent from keeping up with my online commitments and I truly hope you can accept my sincere apology. You and your family still remain in my thoughts and prayers and most of all, I want you to know that I do still desire to do this project with you… My only enemy is lack of time lately. Please do pray for me to get through these issues. I am hoping we can discuss this more and chose which option to take, but not option 4!!!! I just wanted to make that clear! I love our contact and I very much miss it! I will pray for your safe travels and look forward to hearing from you when you get back! May God bless you with insight and reveal Himself to you in unexpected ways through your trip!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

  43. midrashcreed says:

    Your reply has been a great source of delight. My wife has remarked that I couldn’t have had a nicer a reply. She’s only sorry that things have been rough at your end. Like myself she’s absolutely delighted!!!! We’re pleased your back in contact 🙂 Apologies gladly accepted. Your post has cheered us up no end especially as at present I’ve just been enduring a severe ‘tarring and feathering’ on GCN. Much grace and prayer required. I’ve even had a couple of lesbians compare me to their ex husbands, which is always a bad sign. There are some in GCN who just don’t want to use their reason. Some of the threads I’ve established have been a source of blessing. The Auschwitz one though was a challenge but at least it provoked one thoughtful response.

    Sorry to hear about your family situation, We’ve had trials in this area too. .Methinks the devil maybe bothered by any possible collaboration. Pleased that things are OK between you and your ‘Mrs.’ I am preparing an article ‘The Multi-sexual Revolution’ which I’m planning to release on Kindle. Would you consider writing a brief forward to it (three paragraphs max)? Anyway let me know your thoughts on this and the options you prefer when I return from Turkey. Also how does your spouse feel about our possible collaboration?

    Believe me your post has come at the right time. It’s been a much needed tonic at a very difficult period.

  44. midrashcreed says:

    Just got back from Turkey a few hours ago with my younger son and still feeling jet lagged. Visited the historical sites of Troy. Pergamum and Ephesus. Absolutely fascinating to see things the Apostles Paul and John saw. Thought of you and your ‘Mrs’ as our coach drove past the Island of Lesbos. Took some pictures of it. Had time to pray about our situation on an Aegean beach. What has become clear is that there is an unusually strong rapport between us – the sort of rapport I’ve only experienced in relationships that led to some form of collaborative partnership. The first one being with a Middle Class Christian gentleman (from 1990-1998) that led to an itinerant teaching ministry among many churches just at the time they were being hit by the Toronto Deception and the second with a Pakistani Muslim (2001-2007) who opened doors for me to work among the Muslim and Orthodox Jewish Communities of a large Northern English City. I’m still in friendly contact with both men. These partnerships were a success because we had an extensive time of ‘getting to know each other’ months and years before any formal collaboration was established. We also knew the importance of good communication. It seems to me that we have strengths that could complement one another and offset individual weaknesses – in my case an inability to suffer fools (especially religious fools) gladly. These are obviously points to discuss more fully later on but I do see something positive developing between us and I sense that the Holy Spirit has brought us together to fulfill a redemptive purpose among the Multi-sexual Community. God seems to have a hand in our association. Between us we have a vast store of talents and experience that could be a blessing to others. Anyway, let me know whether you and your partner feel the same way about matters and also which option you think is best. Must go as my eyes are beginning to close with fatigue. I’ve been up since 1.30 this morning (Turkish time).. Part of me is still in Turkey.

    • Dear Raymond,
      It appears to be that my last 2 replies to you did not ever post within the WordPress website!! I scoured my electronic notepad to see if such replies were written as a draft there (as I often times copy the text), but alas I see that neither were saved. So I apologize for both the delay, and that I don’t have a good chunk of time to attempt to recreate what I had already written. So on 2 matters, it would seem that email correspondence might be more reliable. But on the matter of time, I still have very little of it due to a combination of a more demanding work schedule, personal commitments, having to aid loved ones through recent ongoing calamities (I could write a whole book on that! Haha!) and the unpredictable nature of my fluctuating chronic pain (sometimes I can physically handle writing and other times it becomes nearly impossible.) In any case, I would like to move forward with you and agree that our connection has been of a divine meet-up of sorts. I would love to collaborate with you and find it a wondrous honor! As far as which option to choose, I am attracted to all of the first three! Haha! Of course this is a lot and would have to be taken one option at a time. So back to time… Whichever might be less time consuming might be best for the current time. Although once I move into the months of June – August, I have much more free time. But as previously mentioned in the past, I do have a drastically time consuming project coming up most likely in the next year which involves studying for state board license exams. Once that comes up, I will have to devote my free time to these studies or if neglected, I will not move forward in my career. We will have to work it all out I suppose. Let me know which one of the options you would like to begin.

      I must be honest in saying that I feel worried about not having enough consistent time and don’t want it to be a cause of burden or annoyance for you. This is my biggest worry in moving forward. I truly wish I could temporarily take a hiatus from my job and devote all of my time to this endeavor! But that is neither feasible nor wise considering financial circumstances. I can predict that this would be done at a tortoise’s pace, and at times a speeding hare! So if you are willing to accept this and still want to do this, than I am all in! Please let me know which option out of the first three might be a good reasonable start. I hope to hear from you soon! You and your family always remain in my prayers!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti
      P.S. On a side note, I’ve really felt that our reduction in contact (almost exclusively on my end) has been a negative. I’ve felt that dark forces have prevented me from writing you and perhaps they are trying to prevent our work from being put out (as you eluded to in a previous message.) But looking overall, I can see that The Lord truly does work through negative things to bring about His good… Perhaps my absence has allowed you to devote more time to corresponding with the GCN community and getting your message out there, and maybe you wouldn’t have been as focused had I taken up more of your time. I feel it’s all working just as it is supposed to work. Praise Yahweh for His goodness to shine through every situation! He always prevails!

      • midrashcreed says:

        Dear M, (if I may call you that) Given the communication difficulties you mentioned I think it’s better that we do much of our private correspondence via e. mail. Also I don’t wish to give the impression of hogging your blog. Would you please send me ASAP your e.mail address and I can then give a fuller response to your post which I did on the whole find positive. When I receive it I’ll send you a picture of Lesbos to frame and put on your wall!

        From: Writings of a Christian lesbian To: midrashcreed@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, 10 March 2015, 0:59 Subject: [New comment] About #yiv2241954110 a:hover {color:red;}#yiv2241954110 a {text-decoration:none;color:#0088cc;}#yiv2241954110 a.yiv2241954110primaryactionlink:link, #yiv2241954110 a.yiv2241954110primaryactionlink:visited {background-color:#2585B2;color:#fff;}#yiv2241954110 a.yiv2241954110primaryactionlink:hover, #yiv2241954110 a.yiv2241954110primaryactionlink:active {background-color:#11729E;color:#fff;}#yiv2241954110 WordPress.com moanti (moe·on·tee) commented: “Dear Raymond,It appears to be that my last 2 replies to you did not ever post within the WordPress website!! I scoured my electronic notepad to see if such replies were written as a draft there (as I often times copy the text), but alas I see that neith” | |

  45. Logan says:

    Wow you have no idea how big of a blessing your blog is! I have grown up in a rather conservative Christian family, and being a gay female is rough when you like the concept of God but only see the stereotypical side of Him.
    But through reading your blog and talking with others, you have totally shown me that I am no less loved by God because of my sexuality or my gender, and I cannot thank you enough for that!!! Sending so much love your way ❤

  46. midrashcreed says:

    Since returning from Turkey I’ve conducted a major review of my involvement with the Christian Multi-Sexual Community (CMC) and I’ve summarized in question (Q) and answer (A) format many of the lessons I’ve learned from my engagement with the CMC over the period of April 2014 until February 2015. As you will see I’ve attempted to be as impartial and objective in my approach as far as possible. Any comments on these points will be welcome. On a more personal note, how go things at your end? I hope matters have improved. Please let me know what option you’ve selected. Finally, do you think it would be better to communicate by e. mail rather than here? Let me know what your thoughts are on this. Hope you and your Mrs are keeping well and strong in the Lord.

    Questions and Answers

    Q1: What do I like most about the CMC?

    A1: What I like most has been: –
    1.1 It’s intellectual and cultural liveliness
    1.2 Its ability to stimulate a vast amount of creative and analytical thinking
    1.3 Its honest approach to sensitive personal issues
    1.4 Its ability to show an enormous amount of compassion to troubled souls
    1.5 Its capacity to produce lively and sometimes highly amusing exchanges
    1.6 The way it’s full of interesting and lively ‘characters’

    Q2: What do I like least about the CMC?

    A2: What I like least has been: –
    2.1 It’s casual attitude to divorce which is all too often seen as a first not last resort
    2.2 Its inability in some cases to relate action to consequences
    2.3 Its complainers who just wish to take offense at anything
    2.4 Its tendency to view logical analysis as a threat
    2.5 Its propensity to generate petulant and purely emotional exchanges
    2.6 The arrogant dismissal of contributions by Non-Multi-Sexual parties

    Q3: What is the core characteristic of the CMC?

    A3: Volatility – what is good in the CMC is outstanding but what is bad is awful! Present is a sub-culture of extremes which magnifies cultural trends in the wider society. If the wider society (like renaissance Italy) values the arts, Multi-Sexuals will value them far more so (as the cases of Leonardo Da Vinci and Michelangelo amply demonstrate); but if the wider society (like America) has an ‘easy divorce’ culture so will Multi-Sexuals but only a lot more so. Present is a tendency to take both constructive and destructive cultural trends to extremes. (The German SA leader Ernest Rohm was an example of the latter.)

    Q4: What do you most respect about the CMC?

    A4: The compassion shown to distressed people who are sometimes suicidal. A real ‘fruit’ of the Spirit has been displayed here.

    Q5: What do you least respect about the CMC?

    A5: The assumption on the part of a few that if you’re not Multi-Sexual you have no right to comment on Multi-Sexual affairs even though they are now well and truly in the public domain (thanks in part to the efforts of Multi-Sexual activists.) Present here is a contradictory attitude which says. ‘We want publicity but not the attention that publicity attracts.’

    Q6: What have been your best moments on the CMC scene?

    A6: The dialogue with a mega-intelligent lesbian author and participation in discussions on Creeds and Liturgies. In these areas I was in my element

    Q7: What have been your worst moments on the CMC scene?

    A7: Being compared by two lesbians to their ex husbands – as if I would ever have considered marrying such ghastly individuals in the first place!

    Q8: What have you enjoyed most about the CMC scene?

    A8: The intellectual discussions, the opportunities to share the Gospel and the witty exchanges with male Multi-Sexuals.

    Q9: What have you enjoyed least about the CMC scene?

    A9: Witnessing the devastating and sometimes utterly tragic consequences of Mixed Orientation Marriages – indeed viewing the often agonizing disintegration of a number of marriages had such a sobering effect that it prompted my wife and I to have the biggest overhaul in our marriage for over three decades. This has begun with a major tidying up of our house. The next step will be to reinforce our financial base and to cultivate new areas of common interest like foreign travel.

    Q10: What has been the biggest blessing on the CMC scene?

    A10: The chance to share the Gospel with hundreds of people – this has been a wonderful privilege that has left me feeling utterly awestruck at what God has done.

    Q11: What has been the biggest challenge about the CMC scene?

    A11: Learning to suffer fools in silence even when one cannot suffer them gladly – my policy towards such people is not to engage with them, but even this sometimes seem to cause offense. There have been points where my patience has been stretched by two or three parties who would invent a grievance even if they didn’t.

    Q12: What major opportunities face members of CMC?

    A12: As a relative outside I believe that major opportunities include: –
    12.1 The chance of placing their orientation into God’s hands by asking him to redeem (i.e. bring immeasurable good out of) it
    12.2 The ability to focus on creative endeavours without the distraction of family ties
    12.3 A greater capacity to identify with and help the outcast members of society

    Q13: What major temptations face members of CMC?

    A13: As a relative outside I believe that major temptations include: –
    13.1 The tendency to misuse their orientation as a security blanket, so it becomes the ‘be all and end’ all of their lives. (Religious Conservatives often do the same with their denominational ‘tradition.’)
    13.2 The belief that ‘the grass is always greener on the other side,’ i.e. that happiness and fulfilment will be found after that divorce or that a new partner will be perfect in every way. Unrealistic expectations can be an issue.
    13.3 A defensive rigidity of thinking which prevents some Multi-Sexuals from learning from their own mistakes or from those made by other people.

  47. Yesenia says:

    Hello Moanti,
    I just wanted to thank you for seeking the truth and making your insights known! Growing up I have questioned my orientation and have alaways been fearful of being gay. The fact that I never felt attracted to males growing up alarmed me and sent me into this period of questioning and fear. However as I am heading into my early 20s I have never been in a relationship let alone kiss anyone out of fear and just keeping a distance. Perhaps one day I will figure it out or realize I am meant to be single.Reading from here is really helping me understand so much about the topic and bible. Being afraid of comdemnation as a catholic Kept me away from the bible and I did not believe in anything for a long time. Fortunately The Lord has given me the opportunity and hunger to know the truth and read his word! Although reading the bible is not an easy task I hope to grow as a Christian and walk in faith. Thank you for sharing!

    • Greetings to you Yesenia, my sister in Christ!
      I am so glad to hear from you! I am very happy that my website is helpful to you feeling more at peace about things with God and even more happy that the Lord has drawn you nearer to Him! Praise God! I will be praying that the Lord leads you on how you should proceed, as I feel it’s a good thing to pray for major guidance and discernment on what His will is for your life. I would recommend that you pray that He makes it apparent on what you should do, wether it be celibacy or partnering in a Christ-centered life long committed monogamous union. I would also recommend praying that He will use your orientation for His glory in light of His grace. I strongly believe that we all have different roles in the body of Christ, and with that we have different callings based on His Will for us. So I pray for all of these things for you to be rightly guided by our Lord and become a testimony to those who share in your conviction.

      I also was very afraid and disturbed over my attraction to females when I was growing up and went as far as to attempt to be straight and even went through reparative therapy. I’m so glad you didn’t have to go this far, as it was very damaging to me both mentally and physically. But I know how hard it can be when we have been taught such negative things against homosexuality and having to endure the condemnation of other believers is truly heartbreaking and can cause us to feel very discouraged. So I also pray that you are able to endure through these persecutions and always remember that His grace is sufficient and no one has the power to separate you from the love of God! So although people might discourage you and make you feel that you are unsavable, always remember that you are not excluded from the “whosoever” in John 3:16 and your salvation was bought and paid for by the perfect blood covenant on the cross 2,000 years ago. So although man might condemn you, there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus! Please feel free to contact me again if you have any questions and I will respond as time permits. May God bless you abundantly in your growing walk with Him!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

  48. Dina says:

    Hi, Moanti. I am glad to have happened upon this site. I often feel very much alone in my faith as a gay Christian woman. I have been feeling especially disheartened lately, as I see so many signs that we are in end times. We have an LGBT Christian meetup group in my city, but it is very inactive. There are very few posts and no meetups. I have struggled with faith all my life. I have had transformative experiences in my younger years that had brought me to faith when I had none. I have tried to find a partner with whom to share my life, but I have been dismayed by what I find in the hearts of those I’ve gotten close to. There is much hatred and mockery of Christianity among my own kind. There are no spiritual guides to refer to, other than what God has shown me. I feel the need for fellowship in these times to obtain and offer spiritual support. I believe the world will get increasingly ugly, and fellowship will be needed more than ever. Please pray for me, as I will for you to keep up your good work. Also, what are your thoughts on the Gnostic Gospels? Thank you for this site, Dina

    • Dear Dina,
      I couldn’t agree with you more that we are nearing into the end times and we need fellowship now more than ever before! Thank God you came to this website! You will definitely be in my prayers! I know how hard it can be to feel so stuck in the middle between the LGBT community and the Christian community. There is a lot of mockery of Christianity within the LGBT community, and of course I don’t even have to begin to tell you how much disdain there is for LGBT people in the mainstream Christian community. I feel like this division has gotten increasingly worse since the Supreme Court approved same-sex marriage. The “us vs. them” mentality is that much stronger. Finding a spiritual guide and fellowship can be very hard when we’re in this predicament.

      I’m luckily blessed to live in an area that has a lot of gay-affirming churches. Have you been able to find any gay-affirming churches in your area? This can also be a challenge because I’ve noticed that some of these gay-affirming churches can sometimes be more gay centered than God centered, in my opinion. Some of the bigger ones I’ve attended focus on a lot of political and social justice issues. But now that same-sex marriage is legal in the United States, maybe this will shift the churches to focus more on biblical issues! But not all gay-affirming churches are like this. The one that my spouse and I attend is a very small conservative church with the majority of members being gay and lesbian. The Holy Spirit is very active in our church and it feels like home. I will pray that you are able to find a good Bible-based gay-affirming church where you feel excepted and loved and equal as a fellow believer in Christ! This truly made all the difference for me, as I struggled between my faith and orientation for so many years, so I know how it can be. I will also recommend, if you haven’t already, to sign up to be a member of the Gay Christian Network (GCN) at http://www.gaychristian.net . They have section in the forums for local areas, and some areas do meet ups. It would be great for you to find a group of gay Christians to fellowship with on a normal basis in your area. At the least, talking in the forums has provided to be a good source of support, so I encourage you to join.

      If you have any questions for me, I invite you to ask and I will get back to you as soon as I possibly can. I do have an important deadline coming up in the next few weeks, so I’m not available as I normally am, but I will still get back to you as soon as time permits. I would love to keep talking to you, as I know how helpful it can be just to have another LGBT Christian to talk to. As far as the gnostic texts are concerned, I think many are falsified by their contradictions to Scripture. But there are other extra-Biblical texts that would be considered apocryphal or pseudoapocryphal that can sometimes offer additional information to biblical history. A while back I did some intensive research into these texts that mention homosexuality. I was going to write a blog entry about it, but didn’t get around to finishing it and had some reservations due to It being highly controversial. So I’m not sure if this would hurt or help the case of what I’ve already written regarding the alternate perspective in the Scriptures. But I will say that as a whole, all references to homosexual acts in the apocryphal and pseudoapocryphal texts proved to only be about rape, idolatrous sex rituals, inter-species sex (specifically human/angel relations) and sex with children. None of them were specifically against romantic relationships, so this is similar to the Biblical references. I did investigate the Gnostic texts and there was one very specific verse in the Apocalypse of Peter about gays and lesbians burning in hell, but this same gnostic gospel also said that Jesus didn’t really die on the cross, so we know that these particular writings are not of God! I just found my notes on these extra-Biblical texts, so I will paste it here for you to see. I’m still a bit apprehensive to post this as a blog entry on my site. Please let me know what you think about it. Again, I invite you to ask me anything you’d like and hope we can talk more soon! You’re in my prayers!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

      Here’s the info in my research on the apocrypha and pseudoapocrypha:

      “References to Homosexual acts in the Apocrypha and other extra-Biblical texts”

      For those unaware, I have spent years of study into the Biblical Scripture on the topic of homosexuality. When one studies the Bible in its original language and cultural context, it becomes clear that an alternate view emerges that does not overtly condemn all of homosexuality, but rather mentions and/or condemns homosexual acts performed in idol worship ceremonies, homosexual acts of rape, homosexual acts in prostitution, etc. Each of these has a harming sinful act attached which does not explicitly condemn the sexual orientation of homosexuality itself. I strongly urge you to read my research before proceeding which can be found at http://www.gaychristians.2freedom.com

      Although I have spent years researching the Canonized Biblical Scriptures on this issue, I have only recently felt drawn to investigate the extra-Biblical scriptures on this same topic. It has been claimed that not only the Bible, but also even extra-Biblical sources condemn homosexuality, therefore the practice has always been deemed a sin throughout Jewish and Christian religious history. To investigate this claim, I collected the known texts which mention or seemingly condemn homosexual activity. This is comprised from the Apocrypha (possibly inspired text not in the Protestant Canonized Bible, but in the Catholic Bible), the Pseudepigrapha (possibly inspired text of historical writings that attribute itself to a forged author), and the Gnostic texts (uninspired text seen as Pagan or contradictory to the true Gospel message.)

      Like Biblical Scripture, nearly every time homosexual acts are mentioned in these extra-Biblical texts, a separate sinful act is blatantly attached to it which distinguishes it from condemning monogamous homosexual relationships or homosexuality as a whole. This can be seen in categories as follows: homosexual acts within child molestation (adult males with boys), homosexual acts connected to idol worship ceremonies (Biblically seen in shrine prostitution), homosexual acts towards angelic beings, and homosexual acts connected to abuse and/or promiscuity/sexual excess. The only exception is a description of hell which blatantly appears to be talking of both gays and lesbians. But this Gnostic work is of the most questionable among the texts, as it denies the physical crucifixion of Christ among other Biblically contradictory claims. (More on that later.) With these categories in mind, I have separated the texts and have my conclusions in [brackets.] I have also made known it’s Extra-Biblical classification; being either Apocrypha, Pseudepigrapha or Gnostic text. Note again that these quoted texts are claimed by scholars to be evidence of the direct condemnation of homosexuality as a whole.

      -Child molestation-

      [Pseudepigrapha]
      2nd (Slavonic Apocalypse of) Enoch 10:4-5a
      “This place, Enoch, has been prepared for those who do not glorify God, who practice on the earth the sin which is against nature, which is child corruption in the anus in the manner of Sodom, of witchcraft, enchantments, divinations, insulting, coveting, resentment, fornication, murder-and who steal the souls taking away their possessions.”

      [Quite obviously, this verse pairs the condemned homosexual act with pedophilia. When scholars assert that this verse condemns gays and lesbians, they are ignoring that the target of condemnation is clearly the child molester.

      As it states that the child corruption was done “in the manner of Sodom,” it should be remembered that Genesis 19 says that ALL of the people of Sodom, both YOUNG and old, surrounded Lot’s house where the 2 angels had entered. In a close study of this passage, it becomes clear that this was not secluded to adult males, but all peoples from every quarter of Sodom, both the adults and the children. It is unclear if any ill intent would have been placed upon the children that night, but it is clear that ill intent to gang-rape the angel visitors was their mission. They violently attempted to gang-rape the angels and nearly broke down the door. Inhospitable cities such as this used to gang-rape foreign visitors as payment and/or punishment for using their city’s resources. This sign of terrorizing power is similar to modern-day prison rape. (Also cross reference Judges 19 for another Biblical gang-rape account.)

      Note that the above passage is the extended recession of the verse. As the shorter recession does not mention pedophile activity; “This place, youth, has been prepared for those who practice godless uncleanness on the earth, who perform witchcraft and enchantments, and who boast about their deeds. They steal souls secretly; who untie the yoke that has been secured; who enrich themselves by fraud from the possessions of others.” ‘Godless uncleanness’ is the supposed reference to homosexual activity, which as you can see if very vague.

      Also note that “2nd Enoch” (2 Enoch) should NOT be confused with “The Book of Enoch” (1 Enoch) which was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and was a Canonized part of the Bible until the 3rd or 4th century, but remains as Canonized Ethiopian Scripture. 2nd Enoch is a later work by a different author. Out of all the extra-Biblical scriptures, I recommend the supplemental reading of the 1st Book of Enoch, as it prophesies the glorious first and second coming of Jesus, gives vivid descriptions of the end times and has the most comprehensive description of the origins of the Nephilim (fallen angel/human hybrids) which helps put many Bible verses into proper context. Enoch was the great grandfather of Noah and is mentioned several times in Biblical Scripture as a holy man and also give credible reference to at least some of his prophecies.]

      [Pseudepigrapha]
      Sibyllines III.597 . Ch. I.375
      “They (Jews) do not engage in impious intercourse with male children.”

      [Once again, this has been used as a reference to condemn homosexuality. Yet we can clearly see that this is a direct mandate against pedophilia.]

      [Pseudepigrapha]
      Sibyllines V.167. Ch. I.397
      “With you [Rome] are found adulteries and illicit intercourse with boys.”

      [This demonstrates that the history of the “homosexuality” in Rome contained pedophilia.]

      [Pseudepigrapha]
      Testament of Levi 17.11. Ch. I.794.
      “In the seventh week there will come priests: idolators, adulterers, money lovers,
      arrogant, lawless, voluptaries, pederasts, those who practice bestiality.”

      [This is an interesting text, as it is a supposed prophecy of the end times. It prophesies that there will be a time in which priests will be pederasts, which means that they will engage in pedophilia. This act, wether between the same or opposite sex, should never be confused with an adult homosexual orientation. The target of these acts of molestation are not of gender, but rather on the age of the children, and most predominantly, the accessibility of the children. Many male children were molested by these modern priests because the boys were given private access to them, whereas most of the female children were kept safe away from these priests, being taught by the nuns. So this is not a representation of closeted homosexual priests acting out, but of pedophile priests with easier access to the boy children.]

      -Connection to idol worship-

      [Apocrypha]
      Wisdom of Solomon 14:23-27
      For the devising of idols was the beginning of fornication. For neither while they murder children in their rites nor celebrate secret mysteries, nor hold frenzied revels with alien laws do they keep their lives or marriages pure, but one man waylays another and kills him, or grieves him by adultery. And it is all a confusion of blood and murder, theft and fraud, depravity, faithlessness, discord, perjury, clamor at the good, forgetfulness of favors, defilement of souls, confusion of sex, irregularity in marriage, adultery, and indecency. For the worship of the unspeakable idols is the beginning and cause and end of every evil.

      [The claim of homosexual connection is “confusion of sex” and “irregularity in marriage.” This itself is quite vague and could mean a number of things, including confusion of traditional sex roles in a heterosexual marriage. Either way, if this does speak directly to homosexual acts, it is clear that idol worship is connected to each of these acts spoken about. It shows its origins in the idol worship ceremonies which performed sex rituals outside of marriage (both homosexual and heterosexual acts) which has been identified as shrine prostitution in Biblical Scripture. The author makes this connection clear by stating in the beginning and the end of the paragraph that idol worship led to these acts.

      One may argue that this wouldn’t make the other sins mentioned “okay” outside of idol worship. This is absolutely true, but this is not the focus of the argument. The fact is that the reference to nearly all homosexual activity in Biblical Scripture is that of shrine prostitution which was rampant in that time. Not only males with males, but males with females. So both homosexual and heterosexual sex took place in this act of idol worship…. Yet we know that heterosexuality outside of shrine prostitution is not condemned as a whole in Scripture. In the same way, homosexuality outside of shrine prostitution is not condemned as a whole in Scripture (when investigating the original language and context). This is the difference. All of the other sins mentioned above have been condemned as a whole without having to attach them within another sin (such as idol worship ceremonies.) So perhaps this verse simply shows the known origins of same-sex activity in the ancient world, which had nothing to do with monogamous life-long commitment or even innate romantic attraction, but rather depraved sexual exploitation to worship their false gods.]

      (Also see The Testament of Naphtali 3:4-5 in the next section for an additional connection to idolatry.)

      -Connection to the the Watchers (fallen angels) and the Nephilim-

      This next topic is extremely controversial (if homosexuality wasn’t controversial enough!) Most Christians give little notice to the Nephilim in Biblical Scripture. Genesis 6:4 describes a set of fallen angels (called “the sons of God” or “the Watchers” by Enoch) that married human women (“daughters of humans”) and had children by them. These children were fallen angel/human hybrids called “the Nephilim” (נְפִילִים). It is supposed that the purpose of these fallen angels (the Watchers) mating with the human women was to have hybrid children to wipe out the blood line of humans so that the Messiah could not be born of a human. Some translations call them “the Giants,” but this was simply one of their many attributes, just as “watching” was an attribute of “the Watchers” who were originally angles of God sent to watch over the earth before they rebelled against God in their own lusts for power.

      Genesis 6:2-4 states, “The sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose…The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY intention of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY.” It has been assumed that the demonic blood of the fallen angels polluted the bloodline of humans which made them only focus upon evil continually. God sought to destroy His creation because the human DNA had been polluted by the mixing of fallen angels, but then one man’s familial generation stood out as “pure” and “blameless” who still “walked with God.” This man was Noah, the son of Lamech, the grandson of Methuselah, the great grandson of Enoch, and the great X 7 grandson of Adam (the 7th generation from Adam). Some assert that Noah and his family were the only pure human bloodline left that had not been contaminated by the fallen angel fathers.

      Many believe that the Nephilim were merely children of the sons of Seth who married the daughters of Cain. This theory is not based upon any proof and the latter is much more cited in many other ancient historical documents. It clearly states that “Ben ha-Elohim” (בְּנֵ֤י הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים) mated with “Benowt ha-Adam” (הָֽאָדָ֔ם בְּנ֣וֹת). Ben ha-Elohim is the Hebrew word used for angels (“sons of God”) in the Old Testament and Benowt ha-Adam is the Hebrew word used in the Old Testament for daughters of humankind (literally, “the daughters of Adam.”) This distinction in no way seems to be relating between Seth or Cain, as Seth and Cain are BOTH the offspring of Adam. So the Ben ha-Elohim is something different from the offspring of Adam (thus, not of Adam). It seems that the idea of fallen angel/human hybrids appears to be too “science fiction” for many people, and it makes sense why many in the Faith, for reputations sake, want to disassociate with the idea of a race of fallen angel human hybrids. But the fact is, if you can believe in the existence of supernatural creatures such as demons, than one should give a second look to this other layer of evil that could have influenced the earth in a dark spiritual way.]

      [Pseudepigrapha]
      Asher 7:1
      “Become not, my children, as Sodom, which sinned against the angels of the Lord, and perished for ever.”

      [The men of Sodom attempted to gang-rape these angels of God. It is unknown, but would not surprising, if Sodom also engaged in the fallen angel inter-marriages. Either way, their sins as even humans were like that of the fallen angel/human hybrids, as they were filled with violence and only cared to further themselves.]

      [Apocrypha]
      Jubilees 20:5
      “And he told them the judgment of the Nephilim and the Sodomites just as they had been judged on account of their evil. And on account of their fornication and impurity and the corruption among themselves with fornication they died.”

      [This verse at least connects the inhabitants of Sodom with the Nephilim. Their evil and judgment was deemed as the same, which suggests Sodom behaving in the manner of the Nephilim. Note that Nephilim were not known to have homosexual relationships, but rather exhorted violence which could have included rape and sex rituals in their own worship. In the same way, Sodom engaged in these sex rituals in idol worship and raped foreign visitors as payment for using the resources in their land. Selfish ambition, sexual violence and murder were among both the Nephilim and the inhabitants of Sodom.

      [Pseudepigrapha]
      The Testament of Naphtali 3:4-5
      But ye shall not be so, my children, recognizing in the firmament, in the earth, and in the sea, and in all created things, the Lord who made all things, that ye become not as Sodom, which changed the order of nature. The Watchers changed the order of their nature, whom the Lord cursed at the flood, on whose account He made the earth without inhabitants and fruitless. These things I say unto you, my children, for I have read in the writing of Enoch that ye yourselves also shall depart from the Lord, walking according to all the lawlessness of the Gentiles, and ye shall do according to all the wickedness of Sodom.

      [This verse speaks to the Israelites and is reflective of the book of Ezekiel which states that that Israel became even worse than Sodom. Naphtali prophesies that they will depart from God and “do according to ALL the wickedness of Sodom.” As far as we know, the Israelites did not ALL become a bunch of homosexuals, as if they had, none would be alive today. Likewise, they did not ALL have sex with fallen angels, because if they had, their would be no true Jewish human left. Instead, it seems that they fell into idolatry like that of Sodom. This can be Biblically backed up, as it describes in detail in Ezekiel that the Israelites fell into major idolatry. The “changing in the order of nature” may have more meaning than just a sexual reference. Rather than mention the Nephilim, the Watchers are mentioned. The Watchers were the original fallen angels who took human wives and had children by them. The Watchers were sent by God to watch the earth and take care over it. The Watchers, according to nature, were supposed to be Holy workers for God. But they changed the order of their nature by rebellion against God into seeking worship of themselves. Likewise, it was the order of nature for humans to follow God, but in Sodom they changed this order by worshiping themselves in the manner of keeping all recourses to themselves and exhorting idols over God. This can be likened to Romans 1, as it describes the changing the order of nature by worshiping created things over the Creator. All of these (the Watchers, the Sodomites and the Romans) changed the order of nature by exchanging God’s Will for their own will; Worshiping created things instead of the Creator. So when one changes the order of their nature, they rebel against the nature that God has placed as ordained worship of Him.

      -Connection to rape, abuse, promiscuity-

      [Pseudepigrapha]
      Sibyllines IV.34. Ch. I. 384-85
      “Neither have they [the righteous] disgraceful desire for another’s spouse,
      or for hateful and repulsive abuse of a male.”
      [the fact that this says “hateful” and “repulsive abuse” of a male shows that this is referring to an act motivated by harming intentions, not a consensual romantic union.]

      [Pseudepigrapha]
      Testament of Benjamin 9.1. Cf. I.827.
      “From the words of Enoch the Righteous I will tell you that you will be sexually promiscuous
      like the promiscuity of the Sodomites and will perish.”
      [Promiscuity is the crime mentioned, not homosexuality.]

      -True Homosexuality-

      [Gnostic]
      “32 And other men and women being cast down from a great rock precipice fell to the bottom, and again were driven by them that were set over them, to go up upon the rock, and thence were cast down to the bottom and they had no rest from this torment. And these were they that did defile their bodies behaving as women, and the women that were with them were they that lay with one another as a man with a woman.”

      [Depending on who you are, before you freak out in terror of your impending doom, or gleefully exclaim “see! I told you homosexuality is a sin,” let me tell you a few things about the Apocalypse of Peter……

      Muslims use this Gnostic Gospel to “prove” that Jesus never actually died on the cross. Although Islam rejects Canonized Bible Scripture as being “corrupted” due to the report of Jesus being the Son of God and dying as a sacrifice for our sins (among other believed “contradictions” such as believing the prophecy of the coming Holy Spirit was talking about Muhammed), they accept this Gnostic work as full truth because it gravely contradicts the Bible and supports the Quran and Hadith texts concerning Jesus. If this work was true, than Jesus never died for any ones sins and we would all be completely condemned in our sins without a Savior. So if you trust this Gnostic work, than you may well be renouncing your Christian faith as a redeemed believer, because according to this, the Holy sacrifice of our Messiah never happened. I pray none of you are misled by such a deceptive doctrine.

      If the Apocalypse of Peter has this big of a false doctrine, than how can we trust that he saw gays and lesbians burning (or “falling,” rather) in hell? So the one book that seems pretty straight forward in condemning all gays and lesbians is a complete deception. This should make one question what other misleading things were written to cause discord among the Brethren of Christ.

  49. Hello!
    I am so glad that I found you. I have been called to learn Aramaic for so long, but am having trouble finding someone to help me with basic questions. I live in Maine and there is no one in this state that I can find and help me. Is there a site to submit questions in learning Aramaic? I am starting your blog from your first post. Looking forward to hearing from you
    Lisa Rose

    • Hi there Lisa,
      Thanks for your comment! Unfortunately I don’t personally know Aramaic aside from the alphabet and a few words. I am more versed in Hebrew and some Greek. I’m not sure of a website that would answer basic questions, but I do know of an online course you could take at http://eteacherbiblical.com/courses/aramaic-level-a
      But the only prerequisite is to already know the Hebrew alphabet. This is because modern Aramaic (even the Biblical translation) is written in Hebrew letters. It is a different language, but they have the same letter meanings. You might also try contacting Steve Caruso who is an expert in Aramaic and has an Aramaic design company based out of New Jersey. You can contact him at Aramaicdesigns@gmail.com and he might be able to at least lead you in the right direction… But his website is a paid company, so I don’t know if he would answer basic translation questions for free, but he might at least give you an idea of how to go forward. Let me know what you find out!
      -Moanti

  50. Cindy says:

    Dear Sister in Christ,
    I would like to let you know that I am so elated to see your love and fire for Christ and so much is true that Jesus’ blood is so precious that it covers ALL sin and that God’s grace is open to all that want to be His sheep and have a true relationship with him. As a daughter of the King and a follower of Christ, I have to sorrowfully say that in so much of the Body of Christ, I truly don’t see the love of Christ and I too many times see the Church fall flat on its face time after time when they cannot learn how to be fishers of men to lead others to Christ and then cause more to turn away and hurt those who so need to come to know God and their Savior Jesus Christ. We often don’t think with the mind of Christ in that the church is not just a house for saints, but most of all a hospital for the spiritually sick.

    Too many hurting people are wounded further by the very ones who God expects to lead them to Christ, feed His sheep and LAMBS, and are to lead, but never forget that there is no difference between the pulpit and the pew when it comes to the truth of the imperfections that we all have to face and overcome to achieve to become more like Christ every day that we are on this earth and to further our relationship with God. I also have a deep heartfelt compassion for what young people go through trying to understand their sexuality and the terrible things that one goes through in these times as a child or a young person let alone when it comes to realizing they are not what many would like them to be or would want them to make a different choice. The Body of Christ tends to shun away and expect this person to turn their life over to Christ and instantly and miraculously change when that isn’t how anybody is molded and shaped by God. We are the clay and He is the potter and it isn’t so pleasant sometimes to be on that Potter’s Wheel. We get pounded, kneaded, rolled out till all the lumps are smoothed over and then to beat it all, we get put in the fire and we get thumped by the finger of God to see if we are now singing the praises of God after we just came out of the intense heat of the kiln; and if we don’t ring like a bell, we get put back in the fire and baked some more. It is an uncomfortable and painful process at times, but it is a process of our betterment and to work the plan God has for our lives in His Will and learn to continually submit to Him and not to ourselves. It is an extremely painful process to be truly transformed from a lump of clay to a beautifully constructed and handcrafted masterpiece by our Creator, who knows what is best for us and is truly our closest relative who loves us with more compassion and understanding and patience than any human being ever could, including the ones that we expect to love us unconditionally.

    As a loving sister in Christ to you, I do just want to say that no matter what sin any of us are caught up in, God’s mercy and grace let us come to Him with His arms wide open to receive us and while we are working out our faith and walk as a believer, we all tend at one time or another to try to rationalize our sins away or make a side bar explanation for it, or even try to justify it. I am well aware of my own faults and focus on them more than I do when I see others and I do see us all as works in progress to try to become more and more like Jesus, Yeshua, Emmanuel, i.e. God With Us,; and there are no perfect Christians and no human that is “good.” We just have to keep running the race and reaching for the prize while we continually ask God to do His perfect work on our less than perfect flesh and we do the things for us to allow the Holy Spirit living in us to continue to grow and override the flesh that is screaming continually for us to give in to our desires and lusts of the ever and ever demanding flesh nature of our old man and continue the push for us to let the Holy Spirit expand that already dwells within us and for it to do it’s miraculous works; as it never is ourselves that can get anything to become perfected or changed without falling into a trap of trading off one sinful behavior for another, failure to stop sinning, or even to admit our own shortcomings at times, and that is why when God is working in us, we know that we are changing for the better and growing..

    As believers, we do all have to remember the words of our loving and faithful Savior when He had a fateful encounter with someone steeped in their own sin and that blessed encounter left them forever changed, He most often said, your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more. Now we all know that we are all sinners and there is no way we can actually never commit another sin after we are saved and washed by the blood of Jesus and that we don’t instantly become perfect people from just having received the Lord as our personal Savior. As mature Christians we also of course have the understanding that God’s precious grace is not a license to sin, but a covering over our shortcomings while we work out our issues and walk in that grace every day while we await our full metamorphosis and God’s completed work in that area of our life by power and transformation of the Holy Spirit and for Him to remove our own thorns and transform our hearts and renew our minds.

    So with all that said, I just want you to know that I will pray for you that God continues His perfect work in you and give you the clear understanding of what He wants for your life as His child. But we can’t make the decision to stay in our sin and move forward to grow to become the beautiful masterpiece that He has designed for us to be. We most all have had some sexual sin at some point in our lives and none of them are the unforgivable sin, but we know as mature believers that we can’t continue feeding the lusts of our flesh and the Holy Spirit grow and mold us into the beautiful masterpieces of God. We are all broken and in need of healing and the truth is God can only do His most magnificent and glorious works with broken things. I am not walking in your shoes and I won’t even try to say I can even relate to the place you are in life right now, but I do know that you are my sister in Christ and that I am to give you an encouraging word to keep striving for the prize and your crown, and let no human take that crown from you ever. I pray that God’s word is made clear and leads you with total truth so that your relationship with God can continue to flourish and that His Living Water quenches and provides what your soul longs and thirsts for and that it fills you up till your cup runneth over.

    As a side note, please read the book of Jude with a deep understanding with a concordance to really grasp the magnitude of what Paul is talking about when it comes to the meat of what he is really speaking about in those scriptures. The Condensed Companion Bible and the HTML Bible websites are an awesome tool and resource for your deeper understanding of the word and it’s truest message. It is a gem for your library of deeper study and is one of the most accurate study tools to have in your arsenal to expound on the deeper understanding of the Bible (which I do commend you for spending so much time in the word as you do, as it is obvious that you have the dedication and desire to know His word in depth). Here is a link to it online and you can even save the PDF on your personal computer. May God bless you and keep you.

    Cindy

    Condensed Companion Bible
    (Direct link to the Book of Jude) http://www.companionbiblecondensed.com/NT/Jude..pdf

    http://www.companionbiblecondensed.com

    http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/index2.htm or http://www.blueletterbible.org

    • Dear Cindy,
      I am incredibly touched by your comment to the point of tears (of joy!) Thank you so very much for your loving and encouraging words! It means a great deal to me to be greeted as a fellow sister in Christ. So many comments that I receive on here from Christians who appose homosexuality greet me with a spirit of contempt and refuse to acknowledge that I am a believer and instead accuse me of being demon possessed or say that I am worshiping another god and am aligned with satan. This can be very discouraging and difficult to be so rejected by my brothers and sisters in Christ. So to say that I appreciate your loving comment and acknowledgment of my deep faith is an understatement! I also want to thank you for your prayers, as I want to be rightly guided in the truth and live in obedience to our One and only Savior! You are truly a blessing to me and I pray also for you that the Lord will bless you in many ways and that you continue to come into a deeper knowledge of His Word! I will check out the commentary on Jude, as I just happened to read this book again a few nights ago before I went to bed! God’s timing is perfect, as always! So I thank you again from the bottom of my heart!
      With much love, your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

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