Biological evidence that proves gay and lesbian sex is NOT unnatural

Aside from the Biblical argument that homosexuality is stated (or appears to be stated) as a sin in the Bible, it is a long held tradition that gay sex is not natural as straight sex. The primary reason for this argument is simple, or so it appears. It’s the whole notion of the peg in the hole, the plug in the socket, the part A into slot B. You get the picture. It would clearly seem that nature has made a male and a female to biologically fit together when it comes to sex. Anything else would be like two pegs or two holes, two plugs or two sockets, two part A’s or two slot B’s, right? The human body was not designed for homosexuality. It just doesn’t biologically add up to fit, so therefore, same-gender sex doesn’t make sense, or does it?

Call me a prude, but I write about this topic with apprehension because I am not sure how to convey my point without getting a little on the graphic side. Let me first say that the analogies above do not fit with the actual biological makeup of nearly every human on the planet. Men are not simply made up as plugs, and women are not just made up of sockets.

When it comes to the male body, there is more than traditional heterosexual intercourse to reach pleasurable climax (aside from manual or oral stimulation.) The male body was naturally designed with a prostate gland that can only be accessed inside of the anus. This gland is connected with direct access to the nerves that stimulate the penis. Therefore, when a male inserts himself into another male, this stimulates an orgasmic response similar to a women’s G-spot. Women do not possess a prostate gland, therefore anal sex between a man and woman may feel good for the man, but the woman needs some extra help to feel satisfied, which brings me to my second curious observation….

Not only do women have a way to climax from the inside of their bodies (G-spot), they also have a way on the outside. The clitoris sits outside of the body just as the penis. With this outside stimulation, it makes it more than natural for two women to experience mutual pleasure without the need for an insertable male organ.

With these observations of the human body, it changes the whole idea of “natural” sexuality. Without a second thought, most would think of men having an exclusively outside mode of stimulation and the women having an inside mode of stimulation. With this limited view, heterosexual sex seems to be the only natural option. The truth is that the male body also has a sexually stimulated organ in the INSIDE of their body and the female has a sexually stimulated organ on the OUTSIDE of their body. This provides a natural way for two men to have sex as well as two women. If heterosexual intercourse is the only “natural” way of having sex, than why do the prostate gland and clitoris even exist to cause a mode of pleasure? God could have easily made these 2 organs benign of pleasure receptors, but He did not. Clearly the human body is more complex and was created with the heterosexual AND the homosexual in mind.

If your next argument is that gay and lesbian sex is unnatural because there is no possibility for procreation, ponder this fact. If humans were only meant to have sex for procreation, than shouldn’t infertile men and women be commanded against having sex? Not to mention any woman past menopause. We find no such verse in the Bible condemning these acts, therefore sex was made for more than the possibility of baby making…

Additionally many would say that homosexual sex is unnatural because it is an exclusively human behavior. This is simply untrue, as research proves that thousands of species in the animal kingdom have engaged in homosexual sex; from apes to dolphins to lions to elephants to lizards to dragonflies to BEDBUGS (Yes, there may be gay sex going on in your own bed! Sorry I couldn’t resist, haha.) Not only that, but some species have gone beyond sex and pair for life as a homosexual couple such as penguins and swans.

Despite this biological proof, one may still believe that homosexual sex is wrong due to the 6 passages in the Bible that seem to condemn these acts. If you are a Christian, I encourage you to do a deeper study into these Bible passages and pray for discernment. As a Christian who just happened to be created as a lesbian, I have done years of in-depth study on this topic and found that there are much more to these passages than meets the eye. Before you judge me, please read my research in full at http://gaychristians.2freedom.com . Let me give you a quick simple example. Think about The destruction of Sodom. What comes to mind for you? The first Biblical example of homosexuality being so abominable that God destroyed an entire city because of it? Most would remember all the men of the city wanting to have sex with the 2 men who came into Lot’s house. Sounds pretty perverse, right? Well, it is. First of all, these 2 men that came under the shelter of Lot’s house were not even human men, but angels. Second, the men of Sodom did not simply find them attractive and want to compete to be in a loving committed relationship with them, instead, they wanted to have sex with them completely against their will which is attempted gang rape. How can the attempted gang rape of angels be considered homosexuality? This would be like taking a passage against heterosexual adultery and condemning all of heterosexual unions. This simply doesn’t fit. I will give one more short example, and then I ask for you to read my website for more info. Most take the 2 verses in Leviticus to be a straightforward command against homosexual behavior. What most people have missed entirely is the original language. Just as the English language has double and even triple meanings for words, so does the Hebrew and Greek. In Hebrew, the word for “to lie with” (shakab) in this verse does not simply mean sex. If one reads every single verse in the Old Testament with the word shakab in it, you will find that when it’s used in a sexual context, it is always associated with rape or sex by deceptive coercion. So to say that these 2 verses in Levticus are the only verses referring to consensual sex goes completely against it’s Biblical contextual definition in all other verses. There is much evidence that these seemingly anti-gay passages are more specific in condemning sinful acts within homosexual sexual behavior such as rape, shrine prostitution, coerced idol worship sex rituals, etc., rather than homosexuality as a whole. Please go to http://gaychristians.2freedom.com for more information.

This blog entry was inspired by http://canyonwalkerconnections.com/six-things-straight-people-should-stop-saying-about-gay-people/

About moanti (moe·on·tee)

My main mission of this blog is to demystify the confusion of “homosexuality” in the Bible and let the rarely heard alternative perspective be known. I also aspire to spread the loving Word of Christ to the gay and lesbian community who feel left out due to our society. I have extraordinary compassion for gays and lesbians who have struggled with religious persecution, but hope that they can come to know God as loving rather than run from Him forever due to a group of naïve heterosexual Christians who discriminated against them. I want to bridge the gap of these two groups with knowledge! If only I had a bigger podium to accomplish this… Please spread the word. Thank you and happy reading! https://moanti.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/gaychristians/
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90 Responses to Biological evidence that proves gay and lesbian sex is NOT unnatural

  1. Pingback: Homosexuality in the Bible? – An alternative perspective | Writings of a Christian lesbian

  2. Mark says:

    This is nature going by science as well as love of God proving there is not a sin in homosexuality. The sin is judging others. Fine article here.

    God bless.

  3. Tierney says:

    I’ve been thinking this for years, it seriously proves so much. Animals pair up in same-sex fashion, female external possibilities along with internal male stimulus. It’s perfect. my dad always argued that if a society were all homosexual it would die off….because there aren’t millions of children needing adoption, or idk…science.
    It doesn’t matter if 10% of the population refuse to conceive “naturally”, it’s the RAISING of children, the instilling of good values and morals that matter; not the act of simply creating a vessel for which to abandon or corrupt.
    Who better to teach children (ie the future of our world) to love one another or to treat all life with respect than a sect of people who challenge ignorance and persecution daily- and on a global scale?
    One day, everyone will see that lgbtq people are more like Jesus than the ones who claim to uphold him by using his words to belittle and shame us.

    • Christian57 says:

      Error !!

      Moanti, please do not approve to publish my comment here I posted to reply to the wrong person… :/

      I repost it below where it belong, thanks and sorry for this, human mistake… :s

      • Christian57 says:

        Oh the mess I have done, WordPress is really not practical… (my poor excuse! ^^)

        Please edit as you see fit for creating the best reading experience, Moanti!!

        (One of my worst flaws (quality?), I am too much of a perfectionist, this is almost an OCD…. :/)

        Good bye.

  4. Becky says:

    I would like to thank you so much for posting this. This is something I have thought about for a long time and never have I actually come across an article that is so well articulated. As a member of the United Church of Christ I thank you for giving me information that I can confidently share to my fellow peers. I am a high school aged student from Maine who deals with Christians often not only slandering homosexuality on facebook but the entirety of our religion by making it seem as though all Christians think it is a sin. I am excited to share this to my facebook friends and I hope that once they realize the natural base of same-sex love they can look past their thoughtless prejudices. So once again, I really appreciate your research, study, and writing that put this article together.

  5. Anthony says:

    “Biological evidence that proves gay and lesbian sex is NOT unnatural.”

    Hello.

    I can recognize your effort here, but your argument falls short.. For either males and females, the anus, rectum does not lubricate naturally, proving your allegations of its God ordained function for anal relations, and homosexual males anal relations, are inconclusive and stand as incorrect, wishful (if clever) thinking.

    The digestive system is by no means a sexual organ; the male prostate being located near the entrance of the male anus, and a possible source for sexual pleasure is incidental, without any natural lubrication designed by God to encourage the act of sodomy.

    The rectum, digestive system proper, normal, natural function is indeed, to expel waste, digest.. That is all.

    Several studies point to the extremely high risk of health problems related to anal sex, the more risky of any and all penile sexual activities, actually..

    Would God allow, and bless that..? The answer is a firm, logic, definitive NO!

    For the woman clitoris, it is not my field of expertise, being a man myself, but what can I say? Again, God designed organs as God saw fit, blessing the woman with this part in her reproductive system, with double the nerves in comparison to the male gland, for her maximum pleasure.

    I fail to find any biological evidence of God’s legitimization of lesbian sex in that design, either.

    Regards,

    Happy Holidays

    • Hello Anthony,
      Thank you for your thoughts. I do appreciate your insights. It would seem that the human body (both male and female) were designed primarily for heterosexual intercourse, yet to discount male/male intercourse due to lack of natural lubrication and possible health concerns may not be sufficient. Let me explain. First, the male penis itself has its own self-lubrication method which is fluid excreted from the Cowper’s gland during stimulation. The lubrication created in women is based upon estrogen levels, and some males with higher estrogen levels (presumably more effimenate) have in fact reported a clear mucus-like fluid coming from inside the anus itself during stimulation. Secondy, if we were to base the possibility of health risks of the activity as to the deciding factor for it being blessed by God or not, than lesbian sex would be considered the safest and least risk of health issues. So does this mean lesbian sex is the most blessed by God even over the higher risks presented in heterosexual sexual activity? These are really just a few things to consider. But either way, we know that male and female bodies both have an internal and external modality for sexual bonding. This should not be the “proof” as to if such relations are blessed or not blessed by God, as we know that heterosexuals can misuse sex in a myriad of ways, so I would assert that God’s blessing upon a relationship should be judged on an individual basis. It is simply an interesting biological observation. The most important thing in a blessed relationship is that it is Christ-centered. Although gay and lesbian relationships are less common than heterosexual ones, I believe God can sanctify us by His grace when we put Him at the center of our union. I’m sure you most likely do not agree with this, but that’s okay. We all have individual convictions and individual roles in the body of Christ and I believe that His strength is made perfect in our weaknesses as fallen creatures in a sinful world. When we have our identity in Him, we are a new creation and are washed, sanctified and justified by His Mighty blood Covenant on the cross. We are all truly helpless without Him.
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

  6. Anthony says:

    Hi

    Thank you for your reply, Moanti.

    However, I am sad to read it, apart from the end that I liked… Why the long text..? It is not a debate. there is no justifying to be done and no “evidence” to be proven, no “point” to be gained, no “new” standard to be set..

    It is a simple statement of fact.. Males and Females bodies, in particular the anus area are not “naturally” designed for sex… Indeed the vagina is “naturally” designed for penetration… Sorry to say, to state the reality as it is, pelase stop to confront it… For your own good. Dear.

    The Biblical God has already spoken against homosexuality in its pratice in not possibly clearer and stricter terms, and no support is to be found for “homosexual partnerships” in Scriptures.. The blessing is exlusive to the committed heterosexual couple… Again, I am sorry to say to state this,for believers..

    Unbelievers are free to go their own way, of course and not expected to stop pursuing their romantic / sexual preferences to pelase a God they do not believe in..

    God save… Amen.

    PS :

    Please do no adress my message by quoting and replying. I am not debating, I am, have been sicne I have kno will to pursue sicne all has been said on my end, stating objective facts.. thank you for your understanding, Moanti and for your honesty to leave my commnet her, published on your indeed, “pro gay” blog, what ever your claims, actions speak louder than words… Peace.

    • Anthony says:

      Hi.

      Fnd below, my edited and corrected, typo-free, actual post..

      Please feel free to delete this outdated one, Moanti.

      Regards.

      • Anthony says:

        Could you then, please… ? Attend to my polite request, of removing my previous, typo-filled comment (and this current comment too, since it would become irrelevant) for a proper, better flow of your blog, for readers ?

      • Anthony says:

        Thank you Moanti, you told me you would soon take care of this minor problem, deleting my repeated comment, and correct my obvious typos…

        My apologies for “spamming” your blog with my comments, I pray you do not take it as “slander” or “harassment”, it would be totally not my intention…

        Again, please do not feel obliged to adress and to reply to my “arguments”, as I am not open to engage in a debate, at all… I pray you will read them and aknowledge them for what they are, I KNOW it is awfully presumptuous of me to make sucha claim, but I dare say, my “arguments” are the closest I could express a judgment in accordance with “The Objective Truth”..,

        I make it a rule for me to try my best to “judge” selflessly, impartially… With JUSTICE, with respect and with CARE.

        Forgive me, sadly I have too much problems for myself to take, to MAKE time sitting with you here and patiently help you, to accompany you, in your human evolution, in your Christian edification…

        My points are made to talk to, and to WAKE the “Holy Spirit” of GOD I want to believe, is also living, within you…

        I tell you… the truth. Your SHARP and TRAINED intelligence is ruling over it and grieving it, because I feel the Holy Spirit within me gireved by the “heretic” opinions you hold and share here, and MUST inform you of it… 😦

        With all my heart, and prayer…

        The Cranberries song…

        “Don’t analyse
        Don’t go that way
        Don’t lead that way
        That would paralyse your evolution”

        Sorry I am, melodramatic, I am really worried for you misled, and msileading…

        God save….. Amen.

  7. Anthony says:

    Hi

    Thank you for your reply, Moanti.

    However, I am sad to read it, apart from the end that I liked… Why the long text..? It is not a debate. there is no justifying to be done and no “evidence” to be proven, no “point” to be gained, no “new” standard to be set..

    It is a simple statement of fact.. Males and Females bodies, in particular the anus area are not “naturally” designed for “gay and lesbian sex”… Indeed the vagina is “naturally” designed for penetration… Sorry to say, to state the basic reality as it is, please stop to confront it… For your own good. Dear.

    The Biblical God has already spoken against homosexuality in its practice in not possibly clearer and stricter terms, and no support is to be found for “homosexual partnerships” in Scriptures.. The blessing is exclusive to the committed heterosexual couple… Again, I am sorry to say, to state this,REVEALED TRUTH for believers..

    Unbelievers are free to go their own way, of course and are not expected to stop pursuing their romantic / sexual preferences to serve, to pllease a God they do not believe in..

    God save… Amen.

    PS :

    Please do no adress my message by quoting and replying. I am not debating, I am, have been since I have no will to pursue because all has been said on my end, stating objective facts.. Thank you for your understanding, Moanti and for your honesty to leave my comment here, published on your indeed, “pro gay” blog, what ever your claims to muddy the waters, actions speak louder than words… Peace.

  8. Anthony Gaxiola says:

    So I searched many different websites for answers and different people’s opinions and views. Ive seen many, and am still searching. U seem like a very Godly woman who can maybe give me some advice. The lord has pulled on my heart string twice. Hard. And neither time had to do with my being gay or bi but rather how I treated people that loved me. And more recently the damage I was doing to my body. Id like to get ur feedback. I dunno how these things work if it gets automatically posted or if u choose which ones to been viewed publicly. But I would like to email u and kind of get into ur brain if I may. I have no secrets of my past and have no inhibitions in sharing. Please contact me. Anthony.

  9. John R says:

    Hello Moanti,

    I just have a few more thoughts to add to the mix. I’ve read arguments on both sides of the homosexuality debate, and being a heterosexual myself, I hope I can read into them without bias.

    When you consider what is actually said about marriage in the bible, you’ll realize that weddings never ever start a marriage. There are no commandments to have weddings anywhere. A wedding can’t make one married any more than a birthday party can make you age. The 3 requirements for biblical marriage are found in Genesis 2:24: man leaves father and mother. Man and woman cleave to each other. Become one flesh through sex.

    In this sense, I would argue that marriage happens every time these three requirements are met between a man and woman, and perhaps even just when they have sex, but that’s a debate for another time. So what does one flesh mean? Arguably, one could say that it has something to do with conception, because what other physical process literally brings two people into one person? So any sex acts that involve the possibility of conception make you one flesh and possibly married.

    Therefore, only heterosexual couples can be biblically married in a one flesh sense. AND. Only they have the laws of adultery put upon them. For all other sexual unions, there are specific laws about those. This isn’t to say that gay unions are illegitimate or that they can’t live a marriage-like life! Just that so far, God doesn’t place them in the same category.

    So then, if one cannot become one flesh, but you’re living in a marriage type relationship, what does that make you? Jesus might say you’re a Eunuch: in the Greek broadly meaning one who is unable to conceive or cause conception. This would apply to homosexuals as well because they cannot pretend to be heterosexual without lying to their spouse and themselves. And Jesus said some people are born as Eunuchs (chance of being gay rises with every biological older brother), some are made that way by men (changes of being gay rise with sexual abuse as a child), and some choose that way to glorify God.

    Now the interesting thing is that IF Jesus had homosexuals in mind, then He was possibly saying that homosexuality can be more to the glory of God than heterosexuality, because there’s no chance of child rearing! Children aren’t bad, but they sure do take up a lot of time. (Adoption is still possible, but that’s irrelevant to this discussion)

    Thought number 2. The verses in Leviticus saying a man shall not lie with a man, as with a woman. Or as one lies with a woman.

    In the original Hebrew, this reads something like ” a man shall not lie with man lyings woman.”

    In English, this sounds a bit disjunct, so we have to add words to make it read better. Commonly, translations add in “as one lies with a woman,” to imply that homosexuality is condemned here, but because of the ambiguity, it could be equally as acceptable to translate it as “in the lyings of a woman.” So the sin would be that two men shouldn’t have sex in a woman’s bed.

    I, however, think that the best translation has to do more with adultery! Let me explain. Adultery happened any time two or more men became one flesh with the same woman/wife. So! If you consider that the book of Leviticus condones threesomes between a man and his wives implicitly (there are condemnations on having threesomes with a mother and daughter, but not those of unrelated blood), then 1) it can’t be said that lesbians are always condemned biblically, because odds are SOME of these threesomes would involve a bisexual wife or two and the OT says nothing against that, and 2) devil’s threesomes, with two guys and a girl, would also probably be a known sexual activity.

    What can we take from this? Remember that becoming one flesh with someone means any sexual activity which might lead to conception. And adultery is any time two men become one flesh with the same woman/wife.

    So, a man shall not lie with a man, as one is lying with a woman AT THE SAME TIME IN A THREESOME. This is an abomination because the risk for adultery is so high with sperm flying everywhere and possibly both parties engaging in sexual intercourse with the woman. Remember that polygamy always involves only one man. Bringing another man into the equation, gay or not, is too risky. The risk for adultery was so high or prevalent that the penalty was death for both men! The same as adultery! In this case, the husband of the woman was an adulterer because he allowed for another man to enter his wife, and then the other man is an adulterer simply because of having sex with another man’s wife.

    Also note that the woman was unpunished. Why? Perhaps because in the OT culture, they knew a devil’s threesome was adultery and no woman would willingly allow herself to take part in one (especially if normal threesomes were acceptable) so this was rape! This is just a possibility, perhaps. It could be said that the death penalty was reserved for rape cases, as the two verses involved have different punishments. If the woman was a willing participant, it may be said that she would have committed adultery too, and would fall under the death penalty as well.

    Based on this, the OT basis for homosexuality being a sin becomes much harder to maintain. Perhaps it isn’t God’s plan for marriage, sure, but marriage was always for heterosexuals anyways.

    Another thing to note is that unmarried prostitutes were never punished in the bible! Believe it or not, they aren’t considered as sinning, though they DEFINITELY weren’t going along with God’s sex plan. Only currently married prostitutes/whores are punished, because that was just adultery. And God doesn’t abide with sin. Even prominent holy figures who took the Nazarene vow had sex with prostitutes, like Samson. As long as they weren’t Israelites, it seemed to be at least abided by God.

    What does that mean for homosexuals? Well even if you can’t marry in the one flesh sense, it doesn’t seem that it would be condemned as a sin in the fornication sense, cause otherwise there’d be a lot more condemnation of prostitution in the OT. As a matter of fact, if you consider that becoming one flesh is the point at which you become married, then ALL sex makes heterosexuals married (unless it would be adulterous) and so there isn’t any premarital sex at all, so you couldn’t condemn homosexuality in that way.

    Finally, I think the most compelling evidence that homosexuality might not be a sin after all is that there is real evidence that it is a biological phenomenon, meaning God made them that way. Some would argue that it is our sin nature that makes people homosexual, but our sin nature seeks to pervert our conscience and make us do that which we know is wrong. For a heterosexual, committing homosexual acts would be a perversion of what is natural and God given for them, and for a homosexual, the opposite is true too. I believe the verse about men giving up the natural function of women and women giving up the natural desire for men speaks on this subject, not on homosexuality as a whole. To be so deluded that you try to change sexual orientation is considered an abomination because it goes against how God created you. Those who are called to celibacy should do so, just as those called to heterosexual unions should do so, and homosexuals to their unions.

    If we are created with the ability to resist any temptation to sin, then why are over 80% of all Christians committing premarital sex? I argue that most or all of them aren’t, because sex makes you one flesh and that is the defining moment of MARRIAGE. There is no premarital sex. Marriage and sexual desire is God given, not devil-given (that’s a weird phrase), so no wonder we can’t resist it! Sexuality in a committed relationship is good! Requiring weddings and rings and all that should be a symbolic act, not a defining act. Therefore, it can be celebrated later, after sexual union, if necessary.

    Homosexuality is like premarital sex, in that most people who experience it find that they cannot resist committing sexual acts with the same sex, no matter how hard they try. Why? Perhaps it is because it is not a temptation to sin, but a desire from God to love each other in a way that He deems good.

    Having never been homosexual myself, I cannot objectively judge whether it is true that the sexual desires they experience is equally powerful as my own for women, but I’d wager it is just the same. I could no more give up sex with my wife than I could give up my life for saving a cricket. Sorry, but it’s just not worth it.

    PS. As far as the argument that we aren’t biologically made for anal sex, what no one takes into account is that lubes have been around probably longer than written language. How hard is it to find a plant with oil and say “hey, I know what I can use this for!”?

    • Hello there John,
      WOW! I wanted to tell you that I highly enjoyed your comment and appreciate how much you have studied into this topic! The vast majority of heterosexual Christians that I come across do not care to study it in such depth and usually stubbornly refuse to even entertain the possibility that there might be more to the story in Scripture… I really admire your deep thoughts on this issue and how it applies. I wish I had more time to comment on all of your insights, but I will say for now that most of what you said I believe to be plausible arguments. Thank you for taking the time to explain all of this! I think you have a lot to offer with your insights. I think the only part that stands out as questionable is marriage only being made for procreation. “Be Fruitful and multiply” was a command given to Adam and then to Noah to fill and replenish the earth. There doesn’t seem to be an explicit command to have children in the New Testament and if we were to take this all in the symbolic sense, it would seem that we are to be spiritually fruitful and multiply believers. But either way, I do feel that your perspective offers a new look at these verses and raises good points, some of which I have not heard previously. So thank you so much for this and I invite you to share any more insights that come up. Thanks again and may God bless you abundantly!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti
      P.S. if you haven’t already, you might enjoy my article on Biblical marriage and how it exactly applies to Christ and the church. I would be highly interested in hearing your thoughts if you would like to share. The link is https://moanti.wordpress.com/2014/04/06/can-a-gay-marriage-reflect-christ-and-the-church/

  10. Anthony says:

    Greetings…

    Early Teachings on Homosexuality

    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/early-teachings-on-homosexuality

    The accurate and genuine meaning, in particular of this discussed Leviticus passage, is and remain the same that was understood back then, by the people it was first adressed to…

    Since the Biblical God is not “progressive” but one and the same, eternally… Amen.

    Please do not be deceived, readers!

    This person, “Moanti” is serving her own interest, not the Biblical God.

    New Living Translation

    ◄ 1 John 2:4 ►

    “If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth.”

    Since this very article is directly opposing Paul’s word, who was inspired by the Holy Spirit (for believers!) to make our education, a diligent worker of our Christian edification…

    If not the Spirit of God, then… What “spirit” is inspiring and driving, this blog holder…?

    In comparison one genuine “gay” Christian is this kind of person :

    Introduction :

    http://thoughtful-faith.blogspot.fr/2012/01/is-there-gospel-for-homosexuals.html

    Conclusion :

    http://thoughtful-faith.blogspot.fr/2012/02/is-there-gospel-for-homosexuals.html

    Regards,

    GOD SAVE!

  11. Anthony says:

    “Most take the 2 verses in Leviticus to be a straightforward command against homosexual behavior. What most people have missed entirely is the original language. Just as the English language has double and even triple meanings for words, so does the Hebrew and Greek. In Hebrew, the word for “to lie with” (shakab) in this verse does not simply mean sex. If one reads every single verse in the Old Testament with the word shakab in it, you will find that this is always associated with rape or coerced unwanted sex. There are multiple words in the Bible for “to lie with” and shakab (found in these two Leviticus verses) is the only one that means rape. ”

    Lev. 20:13
    “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.” (NASB)

    The context is not at all condemning homsexual, acts of rape here, in spite of your claims of “original language” mistranslation … It just doesn’t work, it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE.

    The two partakers, “partners” engaging, indulging in the homosexual act mentioned in this verse are BOTH condemned, this is CONSENSUAL HOMOSEXUAL INTERACTION that is condemned here, NO COERCED RAPE and the two men are JUDGED GUILTY by GOD’S MORAL LAW ON SEXUALITY…

    The reciprocal punishment indicates reciprocal responsibility….

    Just how many more evidence is necessary to lift the iron curtain of your self-deceit…?

    I am soon out of ideas, how to help you out of it! Moanti… 😦

    Another note, admittedly, the Leviticus passages only deals with male homosexuality, and yet…

    I quote :

    “Ancient law codes, being didactic, do not need to be “consistent” with our modern, precision-oriented expectations; the condemnation of male homosexuality applies by exension to female homosexuality, just as laws that say “If a man…” do not mean a woman can get away with the same act with no punishment. (It’s also questionable how widespread such behavior would have been anyway, given how closely guarded daughters would have been in the ancient household.)”

    Source :

    http://www.tektonics.org/lp/lev18.php

    But the only important “deal” is indeed, Jesus innocent blood paying for the sins of his believers and followers… Then, have faith confidently, turn to God with all your sins and your human misery, confess your sins, LEAVE YOUR SINS, BE FORGIVEN and SIN NO MORE for a LIFE WITH GOD, PLEASING TO YHWH…

    God save through repentance only.. Amen.

    • Dearest “X,”
      I didn’t know it was you, although I must admit that there was something so familiar with your writing that I felt as if I knew you, and alas I do! But I’m not sure what triggered your sudden barrage of comments criticizing my Bible studies, or your use of a different name and not announcing yourself initially. Had you posted as yourself, my blog would have automatically approved you. But first things first, I’ve missed you and miss our friendship! 😦 I do deeply apologize that I became disillusioned with all modes of writing for a long length of time and with so many glitches on my phone and no longer having access to another comp, it’s been hard to write when my phone keeps crashing. There’s also been a number of upsetting personal events that have happened this past year (that I can’t post here), so I was all caught up with dealing with those matters… So again, please forgive my absence. Aside from this, you and I had made an agreement not to argue these points with each other. But now you send me many comments in argument, so it’s only fair that you give me a chance to respond. I don’t expect you to agree, but at least for the sake of others reading this, I must comment on these matters.

      But as far as the things you wrote here…. Now there are so many that it would take me days to properly reply to each comment… You mentioned you didn’t want a debate, but the attacks on bits and pieces of my study without the big picture will likely mislead readers if they decide only to read your comments and not first the writings. So for their sake, I will at least encourage any that might read these comments to review all of the material (and ask me questions if you don’t understand), and realize that some of what you have mentioned here is only taking a partial account or attacking one out of several possible views. But this comment will have to cover several of each of your comments, but may not cover all due to time constraints.

      As a side note, shakab IS only mentioned in Scripture in a sexual context of rape OR sex by deceptive coercion in every single verse it is mentioned ASIDE from not being used in an overtly obvious way in Lev 18:22 and 20:13. So when looking at the verses that appear to condemn homosexuality, it’s strange if these 2 verses would be the ONLY ones not referring to this as well when all the other verses use it sexually in this way. THIS was my point here, which I believe to be a curious one… If a word is used with only one definition over and over and over again, but then is just assumed to be a different definition without any just cause in one or two spots, it’s questionable to say the least. So when shakab is used as “so and so raped (shakab) so and so,” and “so and so deceptively coerced sexual relations upon (shakab) so and so,”over and over and over again, it’s strange that translators would then conclude “so and so had consensual sex (shakab?) with so and so.” Do you see why this is my question? Here is every single verse that uses this word shakab in a sexual context in the Bible: https://moanti.wordpress.com/tag/homosexuality-in-the-bible-the-sexual-use-of-the-hebrew-word-shakab-in-scripture/

      With the 3 alternate views on Leviticus I mentioned (in my webpage) taken into account (none that are mutually exclusive), it would seem that idol worshipers were deceptively coerced (a proper definition of shakab according to the Bible) to perform these sex rituals as a requirement to appease their “gods.” So both the sex worker receiving the intercessory sacrifice and the idol worshiper sacrificing his seed would be guilty of committing a crime against God, as the reasoning behind the sexual act was to serve idols in place of God. This would explain the death penalty for both parties. Most false cultic practices come with a set of false cultic rules, so anyone that follows such rules (like a requirement to perform sex acts for worship) is being deceptively coerced to do so. So even if by choice, being the wrong choice, it is by coerced deception to believe in such lies (i.e. believing that one must sacrifice their sperm to a false god wether they want to or not.)

      I did already read the links you sent and very much like them! As I said before, I feel that we have different roles in the body of Christ, and this man’s journey has led him into celibacy. As far as my research into this topic, I do not seek to change the words in the Bible. Modern interpreters have already done this which can confuse at the least and blatantly mislead at the most. I am trying to uncover the source. If I am at fault for researching the original words of Scripture to attempt to use the words in the Bible to define itself, than forgive me. Speaking of Leviticus, the passage that appears to prohibit homosexuality is not literally between incest and bestiality as you said, but in between “you shall not sacrifice your seed (semen) to Moleck” and bestiality. Homosexuality as a whole does not fit here, as the passages are clearly contextually talking about things that were done within idol worship practice (in this case, to the idol Moleck in the land of Canaan.) Incest is mentioned before this at length, so if we look at Scripture as a whole rather than focus on chapters and verses, Leviticus 18:21 would clearly start to new paragraph or topic, as the topic changes from a long list of incestuous relations to things that were sexually done within idol worship (bestiality included). And as another side note, when one has intercourse with an animal, both the person and animal are to be put to death. I can imagine that most animals would NOT be mutual participants in sex acts with humans, but rather the innocent victims, yet they are to also to be put to death along with the animal rapist. So both parties being executed in Leviticus 20:13 is not proof of consensual agreement, as we must realize the Levitical laws are under the Old Covenant sacrificial system, so both parties (guilty or not) would have become defiled and ritually unclean. This ritual uncleanliness has no place within the modern Christian who is washed, sanctified and justified by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

      Now when it comes to the book of Romans, indeed it says there has been a “change” or “exchange.” They exchanged their belief in God for idols. Romans 1:18-25 precedes Romans 1:26,27, and clearly the context is those involved with changing or exchanging God for belief in idols. These sexual acts are in the context of this, as they gave up the true living God for worship of idols and with that, used their bodies as vessels of idol worship. They also gave up monogamous sex with their spouse for adulterous practices, no matter how often they engaged in these acts. They were no longer practicing monogamy of their marriage covenant and exchanged it for a defiled marriage bed. Likewise even if virgins, they were practicing sex outside the marriage covenant and were enflamed with lust for one another, not love and monogamy. But if we take these passages to mean that they became homosexuals, then logically we would have to assert that heterosexuals “changed” or “transformed” into homosexuals forever; “exchanging” heterosexuality for homosexuality. As we know, sexual orientation is NOT a choice and would be impossible to exchange a previous heterosexual orientation for a homosexual orientation. Therefore, sexual orientation had nothing to do with these rituals, nor did it relate to monogamous same-gender relationships as we see today.

      Our salvation is by grace, not works. We are told over and over in Scripture that we are saved by believing. Otherwise our salvation is based on our own works (which we are told is NOT what saves us.) We must instead believe on HIS works! I believe that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for my sins by the shedding of His Holy blood! I am promised salvation due to this belief according to Scriptures! There is no “fine print” in this covenant with believers which would make a sin void the “contract.” If this were the case, than no man would be saved because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God! As believers, we are not appointed to God’s wrath. It is the unbelievers who will be accountable for their sins. But the blood of Christ sets us free from the wages of our sin nature (which is death) and instead we are given eternal life and will drink the water of life without having to pay a price! (Referring to Revelation 22:17.)

      So this is my stance, that Jesus Christ saves. Salvation is complete in His works and I trust in Him fully. I know that I am a sinner as a human being and no act could save me aside from His act 2,000 years ago on the cross. Perhaps this peace that I feel with God is because I believe His promises. Although I am still a sinner as a human being, as all humans are (wether they are Christian or not), I know that I have the saving grace of our Lord. My heart genuinely grieves any act which is against His commands. I just see these 6 Scriptures differently than you do in light of my research into the oldest copies of the Word and simply looking at Scripture and it’s patterns as a whole. I trust that “love is all the law demands” and I can’t see how love between 2 adult believers who seek to serve God together for a lifetime is unforgivable in the eyes of God. But you are trying to tell me otherwise, wanting to cause me to doubt my salvation and question if the Holy Spirit resides in me. Even going as far as to say that the verse in Isaiah is the unforgivable sin (calling something evil good or good evil) and accusing me of committing it. This is both a hinderance and a stumbling block my brother, but I know you have good intentions. Now that you have revealed your true identity (I’m still not sure why you hid it before), I can somewhat understand where all of this comes from. But I am worried for you and want you to know if you need any support at all through any struggles you have due to your past trauma, I am here and I commit to continuing to pray for you to be uplifted and guided by The Lord of our Salvation.

      Thank you for your comments and care. Please note that I still do not have access to a desktop computer and the comments on WordPress on my phone are so hard to scroll and edit, especially when they show up on multiple pages. But I will do this as soon as I’m on a better device. Also note that my email always notifies me twice of each comment, so I have no idea which one was a double comment, but hope this will be more clear when I’m on an actual computer! Sorry again for the inconvenience! Thanks for your patience!!! God bless you!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti
      P.S. The one unforgivable sin according to the Bible is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is verbally accusing that the miracles of Jesus were actually performed by the powers of Beelzebub (Satan/demons). This is not a sin that a Christian would/could commit, because we would NEVER believe that the acts of Jesus through the Spirit were satanic!

      P.P.S. I would like you to watch a video that has nothing to do with homosexuality whatsoever. In fact, it is a pastor who drastically condemns homosexuality, but this is not the topic. Instead, he preaches on repentance, (something that you often mention.) http://youtu.be/EBc7hFTMQ1g Please watch this when you have the time, as I would really like your input. Thank you X. Lastly, I would love to hear how you’re doing in everyday life. Please write me (email) if you wish.

      • X..... says:

        Hi, Moanti.

        I can not bear witness any longer to your trained intelligence deploying its wings, taking out its claws, probably finding unfathomable joy to have some “new” Biblical “anti-gay” material to coldly dismantle…

        But yes, it is only fair you respond as you see fit, to my “arguments”…

        To my whole-hearted attempts to reason you, to wake the Holy Spirit within you…

        I will just adress this new and relevant part of your comment…

        “P.S. The one unforgivable sin according to the Bible is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is verbally accusing that the miracles of Jesus were actually performed by the powers of Beelzebub (Satan/demons). This is not a sin that a Christian would/could commit, because we would NEVER believe that the acts of Jesus through the Spirit were satanic!”

        The unforgivable sin is holding set unbelief in God’s Goodness, every moral law God gives is coming out of God’s care and love, for us human beings, our best interest…

        The garden of Eden illustrates this the best, God’s “friendly” warning of not eating the fruit of knoweldge of good and evil at the risk of dying, was twisted and turned by the devil for reason to sin, Eve, doubted God’s Word, and concluded God was lying to her, holding back on her , hiding her power this fruit could give her…

        (Now PLEASE apply this first sin to your behavior, doubting God knows better than you the end result of eating the forbidden fruit, of indulging in homosexual behavior, and even finding way to reform “Marriage” in your own eyes, calling this other women, your “wife”… )

        The unforgivable sin, is to doubt Jesus-Christ is RISEN, and STILL have POWER to CHANGE LIVES….

        God STILL SAVES,, This means, God still tranforms sinners, to saints…

        The unforgvable sin is to call the good evil, and to call evil, good like these persons in the text did, accusing Jesus to be an agent of Satan for his Godly miracles, indeed!

        Please, take care of yourself…

        God saves, though only the repentant sinner… Amen.

      • X,
        I don’t even know what to say. Honestly coming from you (someone I would consider a friend and brother in Christ), I’m hurt. :,( This is not some academic pursuit that I enjoy deconstructing. Just like for you, your attacks on this “subject” come from a place of emotion because of what happened to you. Your statement: “I can not bear witness any longer to your trained intelligence deploying its wings, taking out its claws, probably finding unfathomable joy to have some “new” Biblical “anti-gay” material to coldly dismantle…”

        …I’m not sure who you think I am X. I’m not the person you encountered in your trauma and so I ask that you stop lashing out at me as if I am. I’ve been nothing but nice to you and attempted to show you my love in Christ, and this is now getting too personal to attempt to attack my salvation. You don’t seem to see where my heart is coming from and how this has been a struggle for me. All of your points in this comment describe someone who is trying to claim they know better than God and reject Him. I agree with everything you say in this comment that there are people like this, but I am NOT one of them. I seek God and thank Him that His Son has forgiven me and you’re trying to make me feel that Salvation isn’t in my grasp. I’ve diligently sought out His Word and these are the things that His Word concludes as read in their ancient and linguistic context. I didn’t make them up or say “I know better than God” or anything of the sort. I come humbly to Him and my only “assumption” could be that His blood is powerful enough to cover my sins by His grace. I’m not sure why your sudden attack on me and treating me as a complete stranger. This is very hurtful. I’m not sure if you find “unfathomable joy” in attacking anyone who has these struggles? The ONLY unfathomable joy I have ever felt is feeling the prescience of the Holy Spirit move within and feeling the unfathomable love of Yahweh!!!

        If I didn’t care what God said or felt I knew better than God, I wouldn’t be a Christian and I would be anti-God. To the contrary, I have NOT rejected Him and have accepted His New Covenant salvation. My only “crime” in your eyes is diligently seeking out where the Old and New Testament writers were coming from when they wrote the Bible and researching the meaning of words within the Text. I’m sorry that you don’t agree with the conclusions, but to then turn around and say that I am guilty of the unforgivable sin for researching the Bible as a believer? Do you WANT me to live my life in this belief with NO HOPE for salvation? :,(

        We live in perilous times X. What I have noticed more than ever is that there is an attack on God’s Word, in that modern translators (NOT GOD) have inserted words that never existed in the times of the writings. Even worse, they have taken out key passages that twist the original Word that cause people not to understand salvation. Watch http://youtu.be/kFtI_mVOXbQ which shows the new world order Bible versions and how they differ from the original text. Again, this video makes no mention of homosexuality, and it’s makers come from a pretty anti-gay background and I’m sure that Pastor Erik would be in total agreement with these pastors on the gay issue. I just try not to “throw the baby out with the bath water” and instead, find the good fruit of teachings, even if I don’t agree with everything one is saying. But I feel they have some strikingly good points on these issues and I would love to get your perspective on this as a fellow believer. It shows how the modern Bible is not immune to false teachings at the hands of false teachers.

        On a side note, I am in agreement with what you say and find your connections between the Garden account and the blasphemy verse very enlightening! I just don’t feel I fit into this category at all as a believer. I’m only a fellow seeker of His Word and His grace dear X. Please do not attack me as if I am a stranger. Love and prayers and blessings to you.
        Your sister in Christ,
        Moanti

      • X..... says:

        Moanti…

        Short and concise, please, to the point.

        Walls of text are working against the simplicty of a direct human contact.

        First, I thank you for asking me, how I am doing for myself… I am “okay” more or less… My general health is relatively balanced, and this is all I am humbly praying for myself.

        I am still struggling to find a work near my small hometown… I am planning to follow a formation as a worker in psycho-medical healthcare.

        If I find you trust-worthy, reliable “sister in Christ” from your answer to my questions at the end of this comment, we may be able to become better friernds, and I may invite you to write to me to my personal mail adress again, sorry I have “lost” yours over time…

        (The truth is, not proud… I had to delete our mails correspondance, [portion deleted by writers request] )

        I have been driven by the Holy Spirit to simply care for you, checking your blog activity regularly, and attempted to adress your “arguments” for good, for YOUR and your readers GOOD, confronting your opinions with Scriptures actual writings and traditional Christian teachings….

        I sometimes use a pseudonym to protect my privacy, my online identity. (And also to simply continue contacting you, I am not proud to [portion deleted by writers request]) …. I was testing you too, curious of your interaction with me, from a fresh starting point.

        Now, to the point.

        “I just see these 6 Scriptures differently than you do in light of my research into the oldest copies of the Word and simply looking at Scripture and it’s patterns as a whole. I trust that “love is all the law demands” and I can’t see how love between 2 adult believers who seek to serve God together for a lifetime is unforgivable in the eyes of God.”

        Precisely, the problem NEVER was, and IS NOT the “homosexual orientation”, this modern idea, concept and understanding is evidently ABSENT from Scriptures…

        The moral issue always was, is and always will be the homosexual BEHAVIOR that is condemned as one of many immoral sexual behaviors BY THE BIBLICAL GOD COMMAND, regardless of the reason, the place, and the time it happens…

        This is “good old” traditional Christian teachings I am upstanding, all else are “heretic” and “wrong” to me. I am not bothering to argue with unbelievers and challengers of the traditonal stance so much anymore.. You are the exception because I WANT to believe you are my “sister in Christ”, I care for you, and I “like” you!

        God gives the moral Laws, I trust and obey God and His moral Laws. Plain and simple.

        Your statement and position, could be yours and I am not against it per se.

        “I believe God condones committed monogamous homosexual relationships.”

        But then, I will be blunt and ask you clearly, two questions, calling for your answer a CLEAR and simple “yes” or “no”, no argumentation, no “Yes, but….” or “No, but…”

        1. “YES” or “NO” the homosexual ACT, the behavior of indulging in homosexual intimacy is “not sinful” because of the “commitment” you SEEM to claim is “enough”…. ?

        My second question, if you answered yes to the above, if not you can ignore it…

        2. Do you BELIEVE it is acceptable to use (and abuse!) the innocent blood of Jesus-Christ as a sort of “licence to sin”, should you fall HABITUALLY in the above (or any!) sinful behavior…. ?

        Thank you for your honest answers to my, I understand, most personal questions, but truth must be told clearly and without unecessary walls of “intellectual justifying”, I am calling you out on this publicly, politely on your blog but your answer in private email to me, is acceptable too….

        Because I am your brother in Christ.

        God Saves!

      • I just saw your new comment now…. I just responded to your last one, but I guess I just can’t keep up! Sorry! Haha! Thank you for explaining. I’m glad to hear from you back as a friend rather than like a stranger! Unfortunately I must go for now, but will reply to that as soon as I am able (may have to be tomorrow or next day at latest…) It’s truly good to hear from you as you!!! *hugs*
        Your sister and Christ,
        Moanti

      • Hi X,
        I hope I deleted the right thing…. I wish I could show you how ridiculous my phone shows WordPress.
        Our comments
        are literally
        shown
        like this
        where a string
        of text
        is written
        for miles
        and miles
        with just
        a few words
        or sometimes
        one
        per line!
        Haha! Anyway, I really need to get on a desktop to properly do all of this so I’m not having to write in my “notepad” and copy/paste and scroll forever to find a comment. Anyhow, I do show that your other comment was approved and I did respond to it, as I was happy you wrote me more as “you.” Maybe refresh your browser? I do understand that “text” can be taken the wrong way!!! I wish we could talk face to face, and I’m sure we would both see neither of us have ill intent. And I must say I praise God that you feel you’ve worked through your traumatic experience! Also as a side note, I’m praying that you are able to find a new job and also praying for your relationship! 🙂 I’m very glad to hear from you again, X.

        As far as your questions of “yes” and “no,” you asked:
        1. “YES” or “NO” the homosexual ACT, the behavior of indulging in homosexual intimacy is “not sinful” because of the “commitment” you SEEM to claim is “enough”…. ?

        My answer to your question is “no.” There are no “buts” to the “no.”

        Please allow me to elaborate as to why I answered no to this so that there’s no confusion. Your question is assuming that I believe that I feel the commitment is enough, which is only one aspect of the whole picture and I would not say that the commitment itself is “enough.” I don’t believe that a simple commitment voids the act of any real sexual sin. Only by the covenant of grace are we saved as fallen humans.

        Had you asked me to agree or disagree to this: “the homosexual act, the behavior of indulging in homosexual intimacy is permissible between two Christian believers in the confines of a Christ-centered life-long monogamous covenant,” I would have said “yes,” I agree. Why? Because we are saved by His grace as believers and I believe that God shows his blessing upon a covenant of love between two believers who wish to grow in Christ together as life-long partners. This is different from a simple “commitment.” I am reminded of this Bible verse, “All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable: all things are lawful for me, but all things do not edify.” -1 Corinthians 10:23. A mere commitment might not always be profitable or edify, but a lifelong bond of two believers in Christ is most certainly spiritually profitable and edifying.

        Now I ask you as my friend and fellow Christian brother to please read my thoughts on these things so that you can understand how I came to my conclusions, understand my great dilemma, and also I ask you a few questions to consider. I very much value your Christian insights X!!! May we both grow in The Lord by our interaction with each other!

        Please stick with me here X, as I can imagine that this paragraph might be the hardest one for you to read, but is necessary to review to understand my reasoning:
        As you stated, the Bible nowhere mentions sexual orientation, that simply “being gay” is not condemned in Scripture. However, you believe that “acting gay” is a sin that is condemned in Scripture. I would say that I agree (to an extent), but in order to explain in what way I agree, let’s look at how the Bible alone defines “acting gay” (as far as how any homosexual act is portrayed in Scripture.) Genesis 19 shows a full city of people attempting to gang-rape angels. If this is “acting gay” according to the Bible, then I’m not acting in this manner. To keep it painfully simple, the Levitical passages talk about males (not to mention all the other contextual arguments about rape and shrine prostitution and the fact that this was a law for the Jews by Moses under the Old Covenant to be “set apart” from the other pagan inhabitants of the land.) I’m not a male, nor am I under the Old Covenant, so it’s impossible for this verse to apply to me. The Romans chapter clearly talks about those who gave God up and permanently and continuously exchanged His worship for worshiping idols which involved the worship-act of anal sex. So these women believers gave up God (and the monogamy of marriage that came with that belief) in exchange for worshiping idols and accepted anal sex as their worship. Likewise the men gave up God and monogamy of marriage in exchange for worshiping idols and used anal sex as their worship. (Note that no lesbian sex is historically recorded in these rituals, and Paul never said “women with women.”) Also recognize that Paul does NOT state a prohibition against “unnatural” sex as a command, but rather tells the story of what was happening in Rome within the population of those idol worshipers (re-read Romans chapter 1 for this obvious idol worshiping context.) I’m not doing what was mentioned at all, and in fact the opposite by choosing to worship God as the only Creator. The verses in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy use words that have ADMITTEDLY been questioned as not meaning anything connected to the homosexual orientation, and have only in modern times been translated in this way. The words malakos and arsenokoites (arsen=man [singular] and koites=beds [plural]= man,beds.) “A man in plural beds” is all we admittedly know…. (Malakos=soft). Some attribute malakos to child molesters, as pre-pubescent children are the only group of people that would be consistently considered “soft.” Even older translations predating the King James translate this as “weaklings,” meaning someone who is “spiritually soft.” So we have no indicative proof that malakos is even intending to have a sexual use, let alone a gay one. But to claim “soft” must mean homosexual? It’s just odd to me. So when it comes to both of these words, I am not doing these things simply by being a lesbian…. So according to the Bible’s definition of what would be considered as “acting gay” (when we look at it purely from a Biblical stand point of only what’s actually mentioned), then I am not “acting gay” at all! As you admitted, the modern knowledge of sexual orientation and homosexuals as those who have same-gender attraction is not overtly mentioned in Scripture. So where do I go from here??

        My case and point is that I don’t see any connection between God-centered life-long monogamous covenants between the same-gender and what the Bible records about the harmful and/or sacrilegious homosexual acts that were common at the time when the Bible was written (i.e. male/male gang-rape, male/male shrine prostitution, etc.) So this leads one up to working with what they have been given. At risk of offending, imagine if someone is born without legs to walk like most people. They might use a wheelchair or have prosthetic legs. Although neither of these modes of transportation are “natural,” they are still modes of transportation that mimic legs. I guess the natural legs are like heterosexual marriage and the prosthetic legs are like gay “marriage.” They are different, yet trying to do the best they can to have the same thing because both desire the same thing, being that they are both human. Forgive me if I’ve offended anyone with this analogy, but it’s the best thing I could come up with at the moment. Especially considering that walking or getting around is so important in the human life just as love and the physical, social and emotional need for romantic bonding is something that is so deep-seeded into the human life (for the majority.) So to tell someone who has a gay orientation that they can’t be in a union with the only one they truly love is like telling the legless person that they shouldn’t use a wheelchair or prosthetic legs and should just stop desiring to move around and accept that they don’t have legs! Or at worst, telling the legless person that they should choose to walk on their own, falsely assuming they had the ability if they believed, prayed or tried hard enough (which is likened to Christians telling gays they should just be straight and “pray the gay away.”) I’m just trying to get you to understand my great dilemma, dear X.

        My position is that the Bible clearly promotes and mentions only heterosexual marriage (unless the covenant between David and Jonathan is one), as heterosexuals are the majority and the Bible tends towards talking to the majority. It would appear that gays are as eunuchs (not just castrated male eunuchs, but also historically mentioned eunuchs that are males without sexual interests in females). Jesus mentions and accepts the 3 types of eunuchs and it can be inferred that they don’t fit into the category of a male joining with a wife (refer to Matthew 19:10-12.) It seems that the eunuch/gay could be likened to the “Gentiles grafted in” to the Olive tree. They are not as the “natural branches” (as Jews), but grafted into His Salvation despite it being “against nature;” “nature” Biblically defined as being what is most common or seen within the majority.

        So it would seem that for the gay Christian believer, we can only work with what we have been given. So for those that are not called to celibacy, perhaps the the next best thing we can do (since we are not explicitly mentioned in the Bible) is to follow the Biblical BLUEPRINT (or design) for marriage as a God-centered life-long monogamous covenant and join with a partner with whom one can adequately love as a spouse (which for the homosexual would of course be a same gender partner.) Last option is to marry an opposite sex spouse despite having no internal intrinsic motivation to intimately bond with that person, and in most cases, feeling a sickened physical aversion to being physical with them (which would be exactly how a straight person would feel if forced to be in a gay relationship.) I would assert that it could be sinful (or at the least, potentially harmful) for a homosexual to marry an opposite-sex heterosexual partner when the outcome causes the gay spouse to feel raped and causes the straight spouse to be romantically unloved, unwanted and undesired. Not to mention the problem of marrying for the selfish reason of believing that they are trying to “win points” with God at the partners expense of doing them grave harm.

        I apologize for going on at length, but I just want you to fully understand where I am coming from as I answer and ask you to forgive me for this if you’re annoyed that I didn’t just say “no”… If I had simply left the answer of “no” because I didn’t agree with the statement you presented, it would have been misleading to you and the readers.

        As far as question number 2, a simple “no” will do. (Salvation is not a “license” to sin.) But ask me if you would like me to elaborate.

        The friendship that I have with my partner is 27 YEARS long. The sexual act is seldom if you must know. So if this is the only “sin,” then I can assure you that I’ve sinned in other common ways more often as a human being… This is my blatant honesty.

        But as far as you seeing it okay to be “gay” (by the worlds definition in sexual orientation) but not okay to “act gay,” then let me ask you this… Anyone who is gay has experienced a sexual (and affectionate) attraction to the same gender. With these natural urges to have sexual bond, without any choice, that person is demonstrating their sexual interest in a member of the same gender, even if it’s plainly in their own mind and not acted out. But Jesus said that if one looks at another woman in lust (presumedly having sexual desire and attraction towards her), then they themselves have committed ADULTERY. So with this said, how can it be “okay” to have these gay sexual attractions (even without “acting on them”) and not still be committing a sin (assuming that homosexuality is a sin)? How is this innocent when this presumed sin is ingrained completely within their uncontrollable natural identity and bound to happen (as all attraction does)? (I say “uncontrollable natural identity” because even you yourself as a heterosexual have sexual attractions to females without any conscious choice, that being your uncontrollable natural identity.) Jesus even said that any man that hates his brother is a murderer! So any sin in our mind is just as severe as our actions to God. So if homosexuality is a sin, then even the uncontrolled sexual attraction must too also be a sin, which would make the sin inescapable. But 1 Corinthians 10:13 states, “No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.” It would seem without a proven way to “cure” homosexuality and no way to transform from homosexuality to heterosexuality, God has not provided a “way of escape” from homosexuality, nor has He provided a way to “endure the temptations” because even the “ex-gay” ministries have now admitted that no homosexual loses their same-sex sexual attractions, but rather they continue to have them throughout their lifetime. We know that God is not a liar, so how do we explain this if homosexuality is in fact a sin? If it is, than the mere sexual attraction itself would be likened to adultery which is a sin. So it seems that if this is a sin, it is one without escape! What can we make of this when Scripture proclaims that God provides an escape for ALL temptations?

        The only imaginable thing is that it is not a sin (in the context mentioned) and the sin in the Bible relating to same-sex activity is prohibited in cases of promiscuity, rape, prostitution, and all the other prohibitions that are likewise for heterosexuals that cause harming behavior. …OR if it is a sin, than Jesus still saves us DESPITE our sin!!! That His grace is sufficient and His power is made perfect in our weakness! That our salvation is not based on the success of our performance, but the act of His grace that saves us through our faith in Him! This is the only way! No man is designed to have full mastery over his sin nature no matter how hard they try. We can attempt to resist, yes, but we are ALL still guilty at the throne of God without the saving blood of Jesus Christ to cover our sins! This is the only way to salvation, through His work we are saved, not by our own actions! He has made us realize that we are helpless without Him! Isaiah 64:6 states, “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.” But now, with His New Covenant, “”Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” (Acts 10:15). “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” (Acts 11:9). “I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then FOR THAT PERSON it is unclean.” (Romans 14:14.) For many of the heterosexual orientation and some with the homosexual orientation, homosexuality is “unclean” FOR THAT PERSON, but for others (based on their conviction in Christ) it is not. Either way we are only cleansed by The Lord Jesus Christ, as Scripture proclaims, “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.” -Romans 8:1,2.

        The word “repent” in Greek is “metanoia.” Like the word “(meta)morphosis” or change and noia like in the word “para(noia),” the noia meaning “mind.” So metanoia is “change of mind.” With this said, repentance is literally changing one’s mind. So as Christians, we have all changed our mind from unbelief to belief. We have changed our mind from believing we are good enough on our own to knowing that we aren’t good enough without our only Savior. We have changed our mind from not knowing Him to trusting Him.

        He is coming soon to reward the believers and enact His wrath on those who reject Him in unbelief! Our good works do not get us to Heaven or “save us a spot” in Heaven; they only accumulate our rewards in Heaven. Only by His works are we saved. If we have faith in our own works to “maintain” our salvation, then we have no assurance in our redemption, as we are left questioning if we have done enough to gain a pardon. But thankfully Christ died for us once. As it is written, “For Christ suffered once for sins, the Righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18). With this, we are saved once! When we sin as all humans do, our salvation is not then taken away in that present moment until we consciously recognize and express some realization that we’ve done wrong. It is once that we are saved and we continue in His salvation, unless our belief in Him perishes and we renounce His death on the cross. “But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it- the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 3:21-24). So there is no forgiveness without FAITH which leads to the gift of salvation because we are justified by His grace, not our own maintaining of righteousness! The unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God, but we are imputed HIS righteousness upon us so that we might be justified by faith in His work! So in the eyes of God, the unrighteous are unbelievers and the righteous are believers only because of this gift of His grace. It is by our love for Him that we WANT to do good works for Him and turn from sinful works, but these works do not credit us with salvation or cause us damnation when we are under the blood covenant of Jesus Christ. This is my conviction in regards to these things….

        On a last note, I must say that PRAYER was key in my conviction regarding these things, not just the extensive Bible study. As you know, I began with the assumption that all homosexual acts were sinful and all gays were going to hell. Also as a reminder, I went through Christian “reparative therapy” and attempted for several years to engage in heterosexual romantic relationships. You know that this belief caused me to attempt suicide on several occasions. I went from trying to embrace the “anti-gay” teaching and tried everything I could to change my orientation. Lastly, I tried just being single, and there was a point that I was so drastically depressed that I attempted suicide and would have succeeded on one particularly serious occasion if it hadn’t been for a miracle that happened to keep me alive (long story.) It wasn’t until I felt God’s prescience by the Holy Spirit telling me Romans 13:8-10 which convinced me in complete peace that I was redeemable and that love is ALL the law demands. Since this event, I have transformed from feeling cast out to feeling fully accepted into His grace. I do NOT feel personally convicted to live a life of celibacy nor do I feel personally convicted to leave my partner. In fact, the direct opposite has been the case, in that I have felt so spiritually blessed within our relationship and we have both grown leaps and bounds in our walk with Christ and have grown much closer to God than we had done on our own. So the fruit of this relationship has been nothing but positive and encouraging and filled with Spiritual growth. If I felt convicted otherwise, I would harken to the call, as the MOST IMPORTANT thing in my life is my relationship with The Almighty! But as it stands now I am convicted that His grace is sufficient and His power is made perfect in my weaknesses! I repeat this because it has been such a powerful part of my conviction, and in this, I am humbled every single day that goes by that He would allow me into His salvation!!!

        Thank you so much for reading all of this and sorry it’s so long, but as I said, I like to thoughtfully formulate my reply, so it’s been 3 days and many many hours of writing… By now there’s no need for me to go on and on about this topic, as it seems I’ve covered all of why I’ve come to this conclusion! I look forward to talking to you more and would like to talk to you about other topics privately (if you are willing) because I love having Christian interaction with you! Thanks X!
        Your sister in Christ,
        Moanti

      • X..... says:

        Hi, Moanti,

        Dear, please do not take my words, the worng way, and not too personally, I did not want to imply you are guilty of the unforgivable sin. 😦

        Text does not have tone, unlike voice or facial expression….. And I am a French man, not writing in my language, with English…

        I only wanted to be clear on the terrible subejct of the “unforgvable sin” MAINLY for your readers with my comment, and giving “friendly” advice and warning, granted, my “friendly” intention is difficult to KNOW just from text!

        The Holy spirit, admittedly inspired Bible writers, therefore, the blasphemy of accusing Scriptures of ill intention, to be workers of Satan is still very much possible to this day…

        The Holy Spirit enables and inspires believers to trust and obey GOD to this day, it is very much possible to RESIST and REJECT God’s Holy Spirit’s influence, and chose to trust and obey, follow one’s will instead of God’s…

        YES we live in perilous times, and I tell you, there is safety only in repentance and constant prayer, the shelter from God’s DUE WRATH on unrighteousness is ONLY found at the Cross…

        Please relax yourself, I am sorry for my harsh words in my opening phrase, I mean no harm to you… I assume, conclude, too fast and wrong, too, sometimes.. 😦

        You and me are, “just humans” and you too, make mistakes in your assumptions,and conclusions, with me. I tell you the honest truth, I am not at all motivated by my past trauma, I am glad to say to you, this, my issue is “sorting out” very well for me, my words are not at all coming from this!

        But coming from my care for you, my worry for you to not commit sins offending GOD… Really!!

        My comment following this one, is different, and I am asking you clearer, cooler, getting more to my point… You have not published it yet, maybe not found it ?

        I posted a comment above too, “opening my heart” to you, exposing to you my true motivations and the goal I am aiming to meet, with my comments, with you….

        I will tell you something, heart warming for you, to redeem myself in your eyes…

        “I believed God condones committed monogamous homosexual relationships.”

        This line could resume your postion very well, right…?

        I am AGREEING WITH YOU!!!

        As long said “homosexual relationship” is not licencing homosexual SEX and homosexual ROMANCE, and “partners” being “companions” like two brothers, or two sisters in CHRIST could be, I AM ALL FOR IT!!!

        This is VERY MUCH POSSIBLE God bless these “unions”! BUT it MUST NEVER be compared, let alone,equated with “heterosexual” unions…

        “Gay sex” and “gay romance” are God(forsaken… This is not negotiable why, because “gay sex” is condemned as sinful BY GOd, and “gay romance” is obviously leading the “partners” to “gay sex”, to SINNING AGAINST GOD’s COMLMAND….

        The problem is, it seems very much, like playing with FIRE, with temptation of falling in sin of indulging in sexual immorlaity (homosexual behavior in this very case), walking on thin ice such a relationship…

        I have NO DOUBT it IS possible, for SOME, maybe for you and your “companion”: But NOT without the clear understanding and ACCEPTANCE, by both “partners”, believers that homosexual sex and romance are NOT approved by God, “gay sex” was, is and will be aLWAYS “detstable and “abmoination” in God’s eyes untiul further notice, and further notice will NEVER come, the Revelation is already delivered to our humankind, the human morality laws God is requesting for believers have already been given 10 of them have even been set in stone.. … Period.

        I am not stating anything different than the Bible Scriptures, the Biblical God and the Holy Spirit entices me to state…

        Homosexual acts are sinful, no matter what, this is my, “their”, “our” statement.

        I have no issue with the “orientation”, the “social identity”. “gay people” engaging in relationships with other “gay people”, or even “gay sex” this is not my “business”, what more, it is their RIGHT AND FREEDOM indeed to go their way… !!!

        I am not condoning this, however for sure and certain, either and I will NEVER STOP to say, “gay sex” is sinful if I am asked, or if the situation pushes me to, they can cry to me and beg me to change my mind, I will not. I am loyal to God, not to them.

        Outside of the Church, God judges them! (And I believe, that without Christ, they are doomed!)

        BUT MY “business” starts if said people are proclaiming to be Christians, then I will and I am holding them accountable, to NOT conduct homosexual behaviors AS GOD COMMAND TO HIS CHILDREN,

        At the FIRST claim I hear from “gay Christians” voicing their wish to INTRODUCE GAY SEX, their will to REMOVE IT FROM SEXUAL SINS within the church, the Christian morality…? I am leading them OUT politely but firmly, as Paul commanded…

        ◄ 1 Corinthians 5:1 ►

        “God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you.”

        ,… This is my relatively reasonable BUT Biblcially founded, firm stance.on the issue of “homosexuals in the church”, you are welcome, but you leave your sins at the door, or by the door you will leave,. Thank you very much.

        I wrote this on Erik’s blog :

        This other link is the most honest and true I can find to help, to share :

        http://www.porn-free.org/homosexual_truth_lies.htm

        My short and DEFINITIVE answer on the moral issue, homosexuality sin or not sin..?

        Biblically, It is “okay to be gay” in term of suffered orientation,,and social identity.

        Biblically, it is NEVER “okay” to BEHAVE gay, God command against it. PERIOD.

        Unbelievers are free to go their own way, of course and not expected to stop pursuing their romantic / sexual preferences to please a God they do not believe in…

        My final warning, and humble stepping stone out of CARE, as a brother in Christ.

        Have a good night, my friend.

        X….

      • X..... says:

        One more, and last for tonight! Short comment.

        I wrote :

        “You are welcome, but you leave your sins at the door, or by the door you will leave,. Thank you very much.”

        The door to God is the Cross being the path, we leave our sins, at the Cross… All sinners are welcome, but all must know the price is to deny oneself because of our inner sinful nature, all shall, MUST commit to walk in righteousness WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, or they are not worthy of calling themselves “Christians”, dishonoring the mighty blood of the Lord of LIFE by their attitude, unwilling to leave their sins behind, mandatory act of faith through repentance, to follow the Holy One….

        I am inspired to point this out and share it… Amen.

      • X..... says:

        This one, Moanti I request you to please delete my double when you will have the possibility, I am editing, “they” for “we” and “their”, “them” for “our”….

        To be more including of the whole of us sinners clinging on God’s Grace…

        Ha ha, you know me, and my obsession, with, perfection… :p

        One more, and last for tonight! Short comment.

        I wrote :

        “You are welcome, but you leave your sins at the door, or by the door you will leave,. Thank you very much.”

        The door to God is the Cross being the path, we leave our sins, at the Cross… All sinners are welcome, but all must know the price is to deny oneself because of our inner sinful nature, all shall, MUST commit to walk in righteousness WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, or we are not worthy of calling ourselves “Christians”, dishonoring the mighty blood of the Lord of LIFE by our attitude, unwilling to leave our sins behind, mandatory act of faith through repentance, to follow the Holy One….

        I am inspired to point this out and share it… Amen.

      • X..... says:

        Hi, Moanti, I am very sick today, so I coudl not read much from, and can not write much to you…

        I read, your answer….

        “Yhe homosexual act, the behavior of indulging in homosexual intimacy is permissible between two Christian believers in the confines of a Christ-centered life-long monogamous covenant,”

        I am sorry, this is just a slightly different wording of my question you wrote, and to agree to this statement is totally unbiblical. I am not bothering to argue anymore… 😦

        My question to you then is the second….

        2. Do you BELIEVE it is acceptable to use (and abuse!) the innocent blood of Jesus-Christ as a sort of “licence to sin”, should you fall HABITUALLY in the above (or any!) sinful behavior…. ?

        Take care… Moanti.

      • X..... says:

        Sorry, Moanti for the delay I am very sick… I have read all your message now.

        “As far as question number 2, a simple “no” will do. (Salvation is not a “license” to sin.) But ask me if you would like me to elaborate.

        The friendship that I have with my partner is 27 YEARS long. The sexual act is seldom if you must know. So if this is the only “sin,” then I can assure you that I’ve sinned in other common ways more often as a human being… This is my blatant honesty.”

        Well, if that one sinful sexual act is “seldom”, I pray for you to please repent from it, this is all God request of “gays” sexual sins, Scripturally, Biblically speaking…..

        But the repentance must be sincere and not falling in that sin habitually, that would be taunting and mocking GOD and the culprits, “fake” Christians, plain and simple.

        Next, Moanti, no the temptation to sin, coming to everybody involuntarily is not “sinful” and not held on the responsiblity of the human person….

        To sin (ie to break God’s law) is an act of the will, lusting, hating for wrong reason (because hating for valid reason is not a sin, ie hating evil is to “fear” God and a command for Christians believers and followers), are act of the will…

        Jesus is warning people, to not entertain the tought, OR it may lead to commit the sin… Adultery after lusting, murder after hating….

        We are not walking on egg shells wit God, Moanti, come on… Reasonable.

        Finally…

        It seem you have “bought” into the modern, secular understandings…

        There are no “gays, “heteros”, etc, for God… Only plain male and and female, man and woman, and I am sorry to not take into the account opf God’s original Creation and design of Humanity, the extremely rare “cases” of hermaphroditism, which are genetic anomalies, no offense!

        These “sexual orientation” and “sexual identity” “knowledge” are human psychology concepts, and have nothing to do with the Biblical God way set before believers….

        Worst, and you seem to have fallen victim of it, these concepts have been and are used by activists, to brain wash the masses, the public opinion about these “findings”….

        I for one do not believe in “sexual orientation ingrained”, I may offend you and gays, to believe this is to set oneself in a certain framework, mindset that is not validated by Scriptures, but indeed, socially cosntructed and dmaging, detrimental to the human person, working against GOD…

        I am so sad to know, you are a victim of this…

        I must go now, please take care of yourself, and you are welcome to contact me to my personal email, though, I consider you more a seculr lsebian than my sisetr in crhist… A bit of both, and if you are sincere to repent from your “seldom” gay sex, you make “me”, and infinitely more importantly, I know because the Holy spirit entices me to state it, you actually serve God and “work” diligently on your salvation by doing so!!!

        God saves, but only the repentant…

        Rebellious sinners are digging their own grave.

        Amen.

      • X..... says:

        Hello, Moanti.

        It has been a few days, I pray you could digest all these comments and informations I have (I am sorry for the frequency they came out!) been adressing to you (and to our readers!) on your blog…

        You and me are taking at theart that “hunt for the Truth” and on this, I am not sorry to say, for us both Christian believers, only God speaks the Truth… Both through Scriptures word from its inspired Authors, and from, by the Holy Spirit current influence over our thoughts and feelings… The Truth is available to all, and sets FREE!

        I have already said this a year ago to you, and in very clear and simple terms, in Biblical and general terms “adultery” means “cheating your spouse” sexually, or romantically and the Godly Marriage has been unarguably defined, set, determined and expressed as one exlusively heterosexual union. Jesus-Christ HIMSELF stands for it….

        In this sense, all the expressions and condemnations of “immoral sexual acitivity” as any sexual interaction taking place, not between committed together, to each other “husband and wife”, are taking their sense and express God’s WILL to forsake “adultery” in not possibly clearer terms and way, “homsoexuality” included that is undeniable and unarguable anymore, it is time to stop with petty word games… I have been there, done that a year ago already, Moanti, saying, stating this Biblical, GiodlyTruth….

        I would like you to learn this Truth that is not my truth, but God’s Revelation of His WILL for our human sexuality, and Marriage….

        As your brother in Christ, I am now holding you accountable to God, the Biblical God who is holding you and any advocate of foreign doctrines accountable should you, they not repent, for opposing this truth, and shall you practice or worst, shall your try to justify again, homosexual activity, interaction…..

        My “disclaimer” , I am diligently assuming my responsiblity as a fellow Christian with you, and I am only the messenger here… Your pleading if you disagree, stand with God, not with me…

        I wish you make changes to your blog, and correct your misconception of God’s approval for homosexual sex “in case of loving homosexual relationship”… This is not the truth and nothing short of “heretic” to God’s words and genuine (early and intemporal) Church teachings, Biblical Christianity…

        Your “alternative perspecyive” is blatant self deceit, why…?

        Noun, 1. self-deceit – a misconception that is favorable to the person who holds it.

        I am not here to condemn you and you know this i pray, but to HELP you come to the TRUTH and be FREED from your intellectual manoeuvres, and experience true BLISS, GRACE and SALVATION through this, ….

        I (want to) believe you are very clsoe to it, and experience it a great deal, sicne the sinful immoral, homo)sexual act in question is “seldom” for you and your friend…

        But your friend she is and shall remain to you, that is what is proper in God’s eyes, Moanti, I am warning you courteously, friendly…

        This following aticle shoulf help a great deal to help you understand, you are serving “the gay agenda” more than the Biblical God here, with your claims and blog….

        http://www.learntolove.co.za/index.php/gay-agenda-for-same-sex-attraction/gay-manifesto-after-the-ball

        Finally, you are not teh first and will ntop be the last, sadly… other Crhsitians have fallen vicitm of the same problem you have, Moanti… Please read these articles below, again a homosexual Christian person, believer testimony that should speak to the Holy Spirit within you, in the same way it speaks to it within me, and moves me, humbles me…. Edifies me in the way GOD wants believers, you and me, to be……. Amen.

        1 : http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2004/04/Homosexuality-Rebellion-Against-God.aspx?p=1

        2 : http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2004/04/Homosexuality-Rebellion-Against-God.aspx?p=2

        3 : http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2004/04/Homosexuality-Rebellion-Against-God.aspx?p=3

        4 http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2004/04/Homosexuality-Rebellion-Against-God.aspx?p=4

        The relevant passage I am referring to, is this :

        “In I Corinthians 6, Paul, exasperated with the Corinthians, some of whom apparently believe themselves to have entered a spiritually exalted state in which the moral rules of their old existence no longer apply to them (cf. I Cor. 4:8, 5:1-2, 8:1-9), confronts them with a blunt rhetorical question: “Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?” He then gives an illustrative list of the sorts of persons he means: “fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, malakoi, arsenokoitai, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers.””

        Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2004/04/Homosexuality-Rebellion-Against-God.aspx?p=2#XYMk6qjQID6DKdFG.99

        Please let me remind you, when Paul adresses this other and really relevant, relatable issue in :

        ◄ 1 Corinthians 5:1 ►

        New Living Translation
        “I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you–something that even pagans don’t do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother.”

        Paul does not ask if this man and stepmother, “love each other” and the same would be, and stand true, shall Paul “examine” your situation with your “partner”, today, Moanti…

        And if not Paul, because he can not I dare taking that role upon myself and tell you the same Paul did back then….

        You can hate me for it, I am loyal to God and courageous to take that step with you, for your own sake and for your readers sake, even more…

        I pray you would at least correct this blog with a LOT more disclaimers and nuance that your “new findings”, “ancient original language study” that you CHOSE to believe against all odds and actual, offical translations and interpretations because fitting your “orientation” and sorry but, also and first and foremost, serves your romantic and sexual appetites, these beliefs you hold only apply to YOU, I wish you avoid spreading your convenient and hypothetic “conclusons” publicly and avoid real sin, of dis-serving the Bbilical God and true believers, with you being the “true deceiver” holding this blog.. whether you are aware of it, or not… 😦

        Perhaps a simple but honest thing would be to rename your blog, while a long bur accurate disclaimer…

        “Writings of a secular lesbian studying Biblical Scriptures, Christian ethics and morality.”

        I pray for you, and salute you, Moanti.

        Take best care… God saves.

        Your brother in Christ, X….

        Ps 1 :

        I do not plan to post and interact anymore publicly with you, but i welcome you to write me to my personal email, though please know and understand, agree the subject of homosexualiity in the Biblcial Go’s eyes is long settled at rest for me, and now between you and me, I repeat politely and friendly, your pleading stand between your cosncience an God’s Holy spirit, with Scriptures and traditonal teachings,coherence constituting the solid and firm, actual and undeniable “burden” of Historical proof, I really can not do anything anymore for you, shall you keep your own opinion after all my humble,compassionate, and I am sorry but i know, provocative and pushy by my lack of manners but yet heartful care and truthful, according to God’s word and will I never made anything up, in my comments, and our exchanges….

        Ps 2 :

        If you can, when you get a hold on a proper desktop, could you please edit my few references to my beloved girlfriend in my comment, to cover my track… ? I ma not proud and it is sad but I really love her and do not want to risk any cause for unecessary trouble… Thank you, Moanti!!

        Again,

        Take best care… God saves.

        Your brother in Christ, X…. !!

      • Dear X,
        I wrote half of this the other day and much has happened at work, so I apologize for the delay:
        I’m so sorry you’re sick and praying for you to feel better very soon! Thanks for your response. I must make this brief. I guess the most troubling thing in your writing to me is that you said you consider me more of a secular lesbian more than a sister in Christ, but a little bit of both. I’m not sure how one could be both secular and Christian. Perhaps a Christian could fall victim to what some would call “secular ideas,” but stranger is to be called a “secular Christian” as it would seem to be an oxymoron. Someone who has a homosexual orientation, but has accepted the free gift of the TRUTH (literally in Hebrew: “God’s mighty blood covenant on the cross”) is not “secular.” If you saw me in person living day to day and if you could monitor my thoughts (as creepy as that sounds, haha), you wouldn’t think once to call me secular, as no “secular person” thinks upon their walk with God as frequently as I do… (And please understand that I’m not boasting about this whatsoever nor am I comparing myself to other Christians and their spiritual walk, but rather comparing myself to those considered “secular,” as there is a drastic difference.) My life is devoted to following Christ as a Christian. To me, saying that a Christian is not a Christian because of their orientation would be as ludicrous as saying that a person of African decent should not be allowed to consider their skin “black” because they have white adoptive parents. This isn’t the most fitting analogy, but it just doesn’t seem right to deny my identity in Christ as a Christian simply because of my orientation. I am not exempt from the “whosoever” in John 3:16.

        As far as making more disclaimers on my website, I have no problem with doing that (when I have more time and the ability to properly edit.) I feel that this information should be taken on an individual basis because individual conviction is so important. Theologically, I take Romans 14 as a basis that not all Christians have the same convictions, but we are all members of the body of Christ as Christians. Likewise, not all have the same spiritual gifts nor do all have the same “work assignment” or “role” in the Will of God. He uses us in different ways, but these differences are NOT to be discerned as a “salvation issue,” lest we fall victim to pride in our own worthiness. None are worthy, but despite this, He gives us salvation based on our faith through His grace because of His sacrifice. One is not better than the other and there are no “levels of salvation,” as we are all one in Jesus Christ and all have His salvation as heirs according to His Promise. There are different levels of our rewards in the Kingdom of Heaven, and there are different levels of capacity for obedience on earth as His followers. But no levels of salvation. You’re either saved or unsaved. Believer or non-believer. Christian or non-Christian. Period.

        I would assert that it is a dangerous thing, human to human, to judge the status of someone’s Christian salvation when they consistently proclaim genuine belief in the Gospel. We see time and time again in Scripture that humans are not the best of judges regarding someone else’s status with God. In fact, both the Old but mainly the New Testament spends a significant time scolding various people for casting out people who deem them unworthy of the gift of salvation. As is written in Matthew 22:13, “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.” We must remember James 4:12, “There is only One lawgiver and judge, He who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?”

        I think the biggest confusion comes in when referring to the meaning of “repent.” Most when they hear the word would mentally attach this with “repent–of your sins.” This gives “repent” an automatic meaning of “turning away from all sin.” But all humans sin, even after they are saved, as none are regarded as perfect but One. Only are we perfect through the eyes of God through the faith of the saving grace of Jesus Christ. When we look to original Scriptures (best translated by the King James Version), we see that even God Himself “repents” in many verses, so this can NOT be synonymous with repenting of ones sin, because God is perfect and is without sin. “Metanoia” is the Greek word for “repent,” and means “change your mind.” Meta like in the word METAmorphosis (to change) and noia like in paraNOIA (the mind.) So it would seem truly that repent in the context used towards humans is a “theology correction” from changing ones mind from unbelief to belief in Christ. “Repent and believe” are not 2 different requirements for salvation (assuming repentance to be works-based and belief to be mind-based), but pared tightly together as “change your mind to believe.” This is, believe not on your own works, but of the work of Him who has come.

        Nowhere in original language of Scriptures (or King James) do we see the phrase “repent of your sins.” Even the entire Gospel of John has no mention of “repent,” but just “believe” as the requirement for salvation. So either the book of John is an inadequate presentation of the Gospel; or the only requirement for salvation is what is stated in John, which is to BELIEVE. It could be said “one must change their mind to believe in Christ for salvation indeed….” Or you could just say “one must believe in Christ for salvation.”

        Realize that I am not at all saying that no one must “repent,” but that people are confused about the meaning of repent and apply it to mean some sort of permanent action to stop sinning, which would promote a false doctrine of a works-based requirement for salvation. So no Christian is “unrepentant” because we have all “changed our mind” to believe in the works of Jesus for Salvation.

        As a side note, look these verse up in the King James Version (or original Hebrew and Greek) to see where God Himself “repents,” which is proof that “repenting” CANNOT automatically mean “stop sinning.” Here are the verses in which GOD repents: Exodus 32:12-14; 2 Samuel 24:16; 1 Chronicles 21:15; Psalm 106:45; Jeremiah 4:28; 18:8; 26:3, 13, 19; 42:10; Joel 2:13-14; Amos 7:3, 6; Jonah 3:9-10; 4:2. Genesis 6:6-7 and 1 Samuel 15:11… But then there are also times that God refuses to repent. One I will mention here of particular interest is psalm 110:4, “The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.” We know this is talking directly about Jesus. So God promised not to repent (or change His mind) that Jesus will be the way of salvation forever. My point in bringing this up is only to show that we may be confused at times on how we apply the word repentance, especially when used in a way to enact it as a salvation requirement to “stop sinning to be saved.” The truly “unrepentant” are unbelievers, as they have not “changed their mind” from unbelief to belief in Christ for salvation.

        I think that Paul said it best as a human in blatant humble honesty: “For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Romans 7:18-24). Now we know that Paul is saved, but he admits he is not able to physically have the ability to turn from all sin! He wants to and desires to for the sake of pleasing God, but his flesh still continues to do wrong even though he wants not to do these things. This makes us even more grateful for Jesus’ sacrifice and salvation because we would be hopeless without Him!!! I myself relate to this passage, in that I do NOT want to do that which displeases God, but despite my efforts, I continue to sin just as all truthful humans would attest to doing. So salvation could never be a “license to sin,” as we are going to sin either way. We can only be transformed in our mind to know that we believe that we are saved and our best efforts to deny sin and do His good work will be met with Heavenly rewards, but failing at our attempted works only sews less Heavenly rewards, but will NOT in turn give us an eternal death sentence. The only way to receive this penalty of sin is to REJECT the belief in the only Savior.

        Even though I read Genesis 19 as an obvious city of wicked people who attempted gang-rape (like the city of Gibea who gang-rape in Judges 19), I still find this verse interesting even if you were to look at it in the context of a city full of gays. Jesus said, “And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.” -Matthew 11:23. So basically Jesus is saying that if He had done His miracles in Sodom; they would have been saved from destruction because they would have believed! (Unlike Capernaum who saw the miracles of Jesus, yet did not change their mind from unbelief to belief.) My entire point in this is that I believe in the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God, and so according to the Scriptures, I am a saved Christian, not a “secular lesbian.”

        My Christian faith is the most important thing in my life and trust me that I’ve thought extensively on these things and have gone from feeling condemned to hell and unredeemable (based on the judgements of man attributing their judgments to God) to knowing without a shadow of doubt that I am saved in Christ. I believe that you and I can both benefit from our interaction as Christians. You have many things to say that I find spiritually helpful. In addition, perhaps God sent you here to also increase your own faith in His grace. If He can save someone like me, than His grace is a lot stronger than you may think.

        So I will not reframe from identifying as what I am, a Christian saved in Christ. This verse comes to mind. “No one after lighting a lamp covers it with a jar or puts it under a bed, but puts it on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light.” (Luke 8:16) And also, “I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” (Romans 1:16,17.)

        I have more to say, but will leave with this for now. But just as a quick note, I already answered your yes or no number 2 question, which was “no.” Thanks for reading and I haven’t forgotten about your other edits! I will probably have PC access next week or at the latest, the following week. Ok? Prayers for you dear X!
        Your sister in Christ,
        Moanti
        P.S. Here is a Christian authored link that describes some of these ideas on the meaning of repentance: https://bible.org/question/repentance-necessary-salvation Also I sent a video to you a few comments back by Pastor Steve Anderson of Faithful Word Baptist Church that extensively explores this topic.

      • X..... says:

        Hi, Moanti.

        Thank you for your prayers for me… And your word to edit my comments, later on.

        We have so many misunderstandings, and I have simply too por health, and also not enough will to adress them all, please forgive me….

        I am not GOD to judge your “salvation”, and my human judgments are NEVER definitive, I sincerely believe a human being can do good, or do wrong, until their last breath….

        I also am convinced by experience of the impossiblity to be saved by faith alone, without the work of repentence, the diligence to stop sinning, to stop offending God willingly….

        As far as I know and am concerned about you, as long as you are going to hold on the God awful, the GOD AWFUL position that “homosexual sex” is permitted by God for His Children, under certain conditions, this so-called “caring, loving homosexual relationship” I am going to judge you a secular lesbian, the Holy Spirit within me judging you right now but not defintively, you have the opportunity to repent and “change your mind” to match the actual, official God’s Word and Will PRESENT in most translations and traditonal teachings, for aeons worlwide, but this is just an eventuality and my best wish for you…

        My God reveals the Truth I hold on to, for my life and my God have defined what is good, and what is evil… Homosexual interaction is judged by my God, an abhorrent evil, a detestable abomination, judged negatively every single time it is adressed in the Bible Sacred Scriptures, not by humans, but by my God’s Word…. I am commanded to hate evil, and to hold on to good and I do just that.

        I quote you :

        “The bottom line is that this neither proves nor disproves that homosexuality is a sin or not a sin. It leaves the reader realizing that it is much more ambiguous than the words appear in the English text. If there is room for doubt, then there must be room to question. There must be infallible proof to say one way or another, and there is not due to language barriers. So how you proceed with this information is up to you, but I hope that you leave with a sense of uncertainty to question what this topic is really about and that there are two sides to the story depending on how you read it.”

        You want to cause ambiguity, uncertainty… This is not from God!!!

        God did not create a man for a man, or a woman for a woman and this is why God HATES homosexual atcs….

        The Ancient, GOD of Israel is the God, Jesus wants us to love, and that God HATES homsoexual acts…

        Yes kindness is the most important virtue, but laws are laws, there is no “reforming” and no “special treatment” with God’s moral laws…

        What ever secular findings and “teachings” are, they SHATTERr against the Holy Word of God revealing His Will and TRUTH to His Children. Amen.

        My final comment to you publicly on this sickening topic, please, Moanti…

        Amen.

      • Dear X,
        First and foremost, I find it most grievous that you have mentally cast me out from considering me a sister in Christ but rather a secular lesbian. I do not align myself with seculars, especially those seculars in the gay and lesbian “community.” I’m quite turned off by all of these things because of their secular ideas. I find it very sad (to the point of tears) because I consider you my friend and you once knew me and thought differently, or at least acted as such. It shouldn’t be considered a sin to search out the Scriptures for meaning concerning a topic which pertains to your own life. Aside from the gay topic, there are many different ways people interpret the exact same Scripture concerning myriad of different topics. On a broader topical level, there are many different theologies concerning end times prophecy (which contain ambiguity and uncertainty) and many different beliefs that believers hold concerning these same verses, some more popular than others. (On a side note, did you know the whole concept of the “rapture of the church” is only about as old as the word ” homosexual?” Yet this is a nearly universally accepted modern Christian theology?) The only way they got to these different conclusions was to deeply study them and alternatives were found within the Scriptures. When you quote me in your last comment when I explain about the studies into Scripture and how there is more than one way to look at this, you’re reaction was “You want to cause ambiguity, uncertainty…. This is not from God!!!” First, I don’t want to cause ambiguity and uncertainty. I’m pointing out that there is clearly more than one way to view these verses as they speak for themselves to this point! I didn’t MAKE them ambiguous or uncertain or “delight” in their uncertainty! They simply are. So I’m showing that alternative interpretation and asking people to simply recognize that there is more than one way to look at it.

        As far as your second point of the Bible being against homosexuality for “aeons,” than I could say the same about it NOT being against homosexuality for aeons because it was only since 1946 that this word was inserted into the Bible. “Man-beds” and “soft” are the literal words from Paul himself, so if you’d bet your life on it that this has to mean “homosexuals,” than that is obviously coming from your own personal conviction (which I accept as your own, as God has obviously blessed you with a heterosexual orientation). As for you, you admit that this is a “sickening topic” so you obviously are convicted against doing this yourself. Again, seriously, read Romans 14, as individual convictions that present as “opposite” between believers are Biblically supported and it is said that God accepts them both when it is done in thanks to Him. Realize that something sickening to you is not sickening to all believers. The only reason this has even become a public topic in more modern times is due to a deeper understanding of the human mind. Obviously we can’t deny that there has been an increase in knowledge and technology and understanding in our modern times (which was prophesied to happen.) Could it just be that God is revealing a deeper understanding about this topic more now because He is utilizing this to gather all of His sheep before the appointed time, rather than let the millions hide from the flock and continue to believe that they are unsavable as the “public church” has made them feel?

        When you say “the actual, official God’s Word and Will PRESENT in most translations and traditonal teachings, for aeons worlwide” that “God hates homosexuality.” The “actual official God’s Word” is found most accurately and descriptively in the original language, not the ever-changing modern translations that take out verses (even about salvation) and insert words and concepts that were not even in existence in Biblical times. Please go on YouTube and watch “new world order Bible versions” for some shocking proof of this… Again, homosexuality is not mentioned in this film and the pastors who made the film are strongly anti-gay, (as I’ve seen in many of their sermons)….Yet ironically the reason that they are such anti-gay pastors is because they think that the Bible reveals that ALL homosexuals are rapists, child molesters and prostitutes, because they can at least recognize that these acts are what the Bible was actually talking about; and for that I respect them. But they’ve taken it a step further by falsely attributing these harmful revolting violent sinful behaviors upon all gays, which we know is not true. For that, they have turned many away from seeking salvation.

        You said, “I also am convinced by experience of the impossiblity to be saved by faith alone, without the work of repentence, the diligence to stop sinning, to stop offending God willingly….” How do you know from “experience” that it is impossible to be saved by our faith in Christ? I do NOT believe it is right to willfully sin, but I also don’t believe anyone is blameless of sin or can get to some point in their life where they’ve successfully become a sinless human being. (Remember that to God, sins in the mind are just as severe.) If this were a possibility to attain true lasting sinlessness, than I can see that God would save us according to our faith AND works. But this was already “tried” (refer to the entire Old Testament) and it was not possible because we are the sons of Adam who fell and can only rely on the Second Adam (i.e. Jesus) to be saved. “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” (Galatians 2:21). In other words, righteousness does not come from the law or doing good works or sinning less. It comes from Christ who died for our sins by the grace given by our faith. Our good works and/or attempt at not sinning is met with heavenly rewards, but not the measure by which we are saved.

        But your doctrine is that if one does continue to sin (at any point?), than no salvation is in them? If this is true, than are you saying that you yourself as a Christian have not any time recently willfully sinned? If you have, you believe that you’ve lost your salvation? Until what point? What if you were struck by a car moments before sinning. Do you believe that you would be cast into hell?

        So if all “real Christians” really stop willfully sinning, than are you saying that we sin by accident (not of the will)? Or do you literally believe one can get to a point of absolute blameless perfection by their own behavior? Please understand that I’m just trying to figure out where you are coming from dear X.

        Now this next paragraph is purely an observation stated in order to make a case for God’s grace and in no way is intended to individually condemn you as a person. Please forgive me if this in any way offends you. I just find it curious that you have willfully admitted to being deceptive to your gf, and even asked me to partake in your deception by deleting your comments about her. It would seem that you feel it’s okay to lie (or conceal the truth) because her finding out could cause problems for you? Please understand that I fully understand that you want to avoid conflict with her… But I just find it a bit ironic considering you’re blasting me for my orientation (something I never willfully chose) and my commitment to my Christian “friend” (as you call her) while justifying your own continued and planned deceit. You just said “there is no “reforming” and no “special treatment” with God’s moral laws…” and you also said as a personal claim, “I am commanded to hate evil, and to hold on to good and I do just that.” But in this case, you feel it’s okay to lie or conceal truth in your most intimate relationship because it avoids her from being upset and you from having to deal with her being upset for no just cause? Trust me, I get your reasoning for not wanting to cause unwarranted accusations. But looking to God’s law written in stone with no possible exceptions, you’re saying it’s okay to willfully sin if it’s a lie to spare you from your gf’s jealous reaction. I guess we could see that your intentions are to avoid harm, and if love is the complete fulfillment of the Law and everything is summed up in that we are not to harm, then it does make sense…to a point. But then again, 1 Timothy 1:10 that has the vise list of sinners that contains the contested word translated into “homosexuals” also contains “liars” in that list. We know the Bible condemns lying multitudes more times than the suspected gay verses. Revelation 21:8 even goes as far as to say “..all liars will have their portion in the lake of fire…” Also we should remember that not lying is written in stone in the Ten Commandments. And let’s not forget that Satan himself is called “the father of lies” (NOT “the father of gays”). But then we must take this into consideration, as Psalms 116:11 says, “I said in my alarm, ‘All mankind are liars.'” So if all mankind are liars and all liars have their portion in the lake of fire, than how can anyone be saved? Only by the grace of the only Savior which is awarded by faith! As is said in 1 John 5:4,5 “For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”

        In your doctrinal belief of no exceptions for sin, continuing to lie or conceal truth (even if for a good intended reason) would appear to make you “unsaved” (despite the fact that Jesus paid the penalty for your sins.) Is this what you believe? It would seem that if you were to truly “turn away” from doing this sin (at least in this one area), then you’d have to confess your concealment of the truth to your gf otherwise you’d be continuously holding onto a lie (or set of lies.)

        Please let me be clear that I’m only pointing this out as an observation, as I mean no harm and have already edited out your comments about her and will delete these portions too if you request it. The apparent contradiction is just perplexing to me. But please understand that my conclusion that you would be forgiven as a believer for your deceit does not mean that I condone deceit or believe it’s good to continue in any sin. My point is that we will sin, as it is deeply tied into our human nature. So thank God we have a Savior that imputes His righteousness onto us and took upon the punishment on our behalf! That my dear X, is my point.

        On a real side note as a tip, I really do understand why you feel you have to hide in your relationship even though you aren’t doing anything wrong (like cheating with other women.) But as a tip, friend to friend, this initial avoidance of possible conflict is likely to breed bigger conflict later on from your ongoing deceit that will make you look guilty (of what your gf fears from her misplaced jealousy), even when you’re not guilty of any wrong by befriending females and engaging in a purely friendly/platonic interaction. Does that make sense? Second, I have been in that same situation in the past (of being in a relationship with someone who has extreme jealousy and unwarranted accusations) and it’s really hard and unstable, so I’m sorry you’re in it and pray she becomes more secure and you can feel more open so that there’s some real trust so you don’t feel like you have to “cover all your tracks.” On a last note pertaining to this, your other option with her is to honor her request and stop talking to all other women. But I can also say from personal experience that this will likely cause you to feel trapped, controlled, and unhappy (that is, if you have a number of female friends who you would have to give up for her.) Both are difficult when in this type of relationship. Again, I will pray for you and for her about it.

        But back to the topic at hand, I think perhaps we just might think differently in that I do not see a persons redemption or damnation in a linear fashion; saved one day, damned in the next moment, saved again, condemned again, then saved on their last day or vise versa, etc. The Scriptures proclaim, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” (James 2:10.) So we have determined that we are all guilty of breaking the WHOLE law in God’s eyes. I see salvation the same. All or nothing. Once we are cleansed by the blood of Jesus, death has no power over us. It is only by our love for God that we want to follow His commands and our good works are a result of our faith. Trust me that I want to obey His commands completely. I just know realistically that I’m going to mess up at times but trust Him to help me through it and that He won’t abandon me over it. I feel His love and His presence so strongly in this very moment and He speaks to me this verse, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:27-30).

        I do not believe we are saved by our works. Our works are a result of our faith and we are to have full assurance in our salvation, or where is are faith? That belief I will not “change my mind” on because it’s supported in both Scripture and my conviction.

        Please do not misunderstand that by me talking of these things, I am not condoning people to sin. I am only saying that we should not fool ourselves into thinking we are good enough on our own. I am not in any way promoting sin, but promoting the good news of forgiveness of sins by grace in Jesus Christ. Personally, I feel utterly unworthy of Him and admit to sinning and ask for forgiveness. I just thank God that I know I have His forgiveness, and only because Jesus has made us worthy through His sacrifice. So please don’t misunderstand. Your God is my God, Yahweh the Elohim of Yisrael! We truly are siblings in Christ!

        I was led to the book of Romans and I leave you with these words from the Holy Spirit imparted by Paul that touch my heart and I am called to share it with you as a Christian brother, even for the sake of sharing the joy in my heart regarding His mighty love! I’m continuing in prayer for you X.
        Your sister in Christ,
        Moanti
        This is so amazing and hope it touches your soul as it does mine:
        “What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring-not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”-in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
        Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person-though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die- but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned- for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ!” (Romans 4:1-25 and 5:1-17).
        Praise God!!!!!!! Amen!!!!!!!

      • Dear X,
        I didn’t mean any harm by bringing up the lie thing. Just making a point for God’s grace. Any lie, no matter how small, is still significant in God’s eyes if all lying is a sin. If one was blameless in all other areas, but lied in a small way, they would still be guilty of breaking the whole law according to the Bible. My point was just to show we are all guilty, but we can all have the grace of salvation. Please forgive me if I offended you.

        I get your point in what your saying and don’t think it would hurt to review the blog and make more “disclaimers,” especially on certain pages. The main one that has the majority of info has quite a bit of disclaimers, but perhaps others do not have enough. I don’t wish to lead anyone astray with these “observations” but I still do see them as evidence that there’s more than one way to look at it. “Evidence” rather than “proof.” I don’t think there is any undoubtable proof of this topic either way since there is more than one side. That’s why I leave it up to the readers discretion and encourage them to pray to be guided by the Holy Spirit on these matters pertaining to their God-given convictions. Just pray for me, and for my readers. I do appreciate it. I take it seriously. I also value your opinion.

        My whole reason for starting this blog was to help and lead those who felt previously cast out to Christ. I saw so much bad fruit with Christians who were casting out gays, making them all feel that God hated them and wanted them to burn in hell, which in turn caused many to reject the idea of salvation. Many gays turned atheist or turning to other new age false religions, then ensuring them no place for acceptance from God (because of their rejection.) Then I saw Christians seeing these atheist gays and using it as “proof” to say “see, all gays are evil God-haters!” While not realizing that their treatment of them as hellhound unless they changed to be hetero or renounce any possibility of lasting romanic love was why they rejected it in the first place. I saw Christians forgive the “ex-gay” who “slipped” by repeatedly having anonymous sex in public restrooms while rejecting the the gay who wanted to wait until marriage (or “union.”) I saw Christians accept the re-married from divorce (considered an adulterous union by the Bible), liars, cheaters, thieves, and other sinners, but many not accepting any who have same-sex attraction into the walls of their church. Then I saw gays reading this alternative perspective within the Scriptures themselves, realizing that they were also under the grace of the only Savior, turning to God and believing and accepting Salvation. Noted, I’ve also seen (by majority) those gay Chrisians who were raised Christian but struggled in their identity due to the traditional interpretation, many attempting to turn away at first, and coming back when they felt the love of God again or for the first time. I saw the good fruit of these true believers and saw many subsequently rely on Christ and lives were changed in this life and the one to come. This was the difference in “fruits” and this is why I feel that good fruit has come from this rather than the bad fruit of turning people away from Christ. (Not to mention all the gay suicides caused by the hateful.)

        I read your comment earlier today, that you’ve having a hard time not hating us…. Mentioning only the 3 (including me) you’ve talked to. FYI, one out of the two you’ve talked to on my main page is not a professing Christian (to my knowledge), and I think you can tell who by other comments made (on that other website) that were blatantly against Christianity and the nature of sin… So don’t judge this person into the mix of “gay Christians.” I’m sorry this topic exhasted you. I’m not sure what other websites you say are “affiliated” with my blog. I have no affiliations with any other site… Unless you meant my pages. I’m sorry to keep this short but must go for now. You’ve helped more than you think X, so don’t be discouraged. God did and does have a plan. You will continue to be in my prayers hon.
        Your sister in Christ by the blood of the Lamb,
        Moanti
        P.S. Gay Christians as a whole are as vast in difference as Christian denominations as a whole. If you really want a fairer representation of gay Christians, go to The gay Christian network http://www.gaychristian.net Side B Christians believe as you, that gay is sin and they should be celibate. You’d get along with them just fine. Side A is more like me, but if you really got to know them, you’d see many still internally struggle at times. I relate with both of them in different ways and don’t in other ways.

      • X..... says:

        Hi, Moanti.

        Well well well….

        I never, never judge you wrong for studying Scripture original language, or your same sex attraction, “orientation”.

        I judge you wrong for holding on and forwarding the wrong idea, or outright lie depending on your intenttion and level of awareness of your own denial / deception, that said homosexual orientation is “God given” (Not…) and that homosexual conduct is God honoring (NOT!!!) within your so-called “monogamous life-long Christ centered bla bla bla homosexual relaitonship”, the same mantra found in all these “gay Christians” websites polluting the Online web!!

        This have become nasty, and way too personal indeed…

        A shared feeling, I am also on my nerves, and out of nerves with the “gay Christians” propaganda I find to read left and right. It is fair game, I hate these false teachings, and you hate my arguments uncovering the rehashed lies going on in this vicious circle of websites affiliated with your blog….

        Original point for you, your self-serving interpretation of “anal sex worship” explaining out “women exchanging natural relations for unnatural ones”, trying to supress the Truth of lesbianism denounced by Paul in Romans 1, but it does not work that way… Not when this interpretation is highly subjective, and absolutely foreign and independant from the common Christian understanding of these verses..

        “First, I don’t want to cause ambiguity and uncertainty. I’m pointing out that there is clearly more than one way to view these verses as they speak for themselves to this point! I didn’t MAKE them ambiguous or uncertain or “delight” in their uncertainty! They simply are. So I’m showing that alternative interpretation and asking people to simply recognize that there is more than one way to look at it.”

        “They simply are.” No, sorry. you only read what you WANT to read there, Me and about all Christians I asked read in no uncertain terms the Bible Sacred Scriptures revealing and supporting the simple TRUTH of God’s ideal for sexuality designed EXLUSIVELY for one man and one woman within their monogamous Marriage…

        The rest is your own recipe and wishul thinking, because you know it, you want your share of the cake, affirmation and legitmization, God’s approval for homosexual sex and “love” with your “partner”, badly turning out to self-deceit and your “studies” devoted to find affirmation of your assumptions where you can in Scripture, or creating them if not!

        It is understandable and for this, I am compassionate enough to NOT blame you, and you would have me off your back long ago, never found me there if you was not presenting yourself a “lesbian Christian” ONLINE playing with words way too much, covering your true motives with a veil of benevolent religiosity ON A PUBLIC BLOG POTENTIALLY DECIEIVING READERS , YOUR PERSONAL CONVICTIONS, YOU PURPOSEDLY OR NOT CONVEYED AS EVIDENCE ON ALMOST EVERY ARTICLE, MAKING THEM FALSE TEACHINGS!!

        The difference betwen “unsaved” and “saved” sinner…? Saved ones indeed believe they “have” Christ on their side and believe in His mighty blood covenant, come to God’s forgiveness with their faith, are quick to repent, and do not live a life of habitual sin…

        As far as I can judeg about yorus situation, yous eem to be in the green , you say to not angage in homseoxuial sex habitually, and the only question you musta nswer yourself, but not to me, do you consider your friend, your friend ot more than that, ..?

        I know God despises homosexual acts by Holy Scripture, and while not adressed specifically I doubt God is approving of homosexual romance either.

        I know you dare callig nehr, condiering “yours”, your “wife”…

        The Abrahamic God does never approve of this,,I tell you because I hate lies….

        The difference between secular deceivers and true believers and followers of Christ…?

        That is the personal will, the intention pursued by each and every individual making them” good” or “bad”….

        I say, as long as you are going to promote “homosexuality” as a valid alternative to God’s design of sex EXCLUSIVELY for the two spouses in heterosexual Marriage, you risk to be a Christian deceived by secular ideas, but when you dedicate a blog ONLINE spreading your self-deceit, you commit a sin, Moanti.

        No offense but one must judge with evidence on hand. You oppose God’s order for sexuality and Marriage, PUBLICLY what do you think this is bringing you..?

        Jesus Christ… I am done arguing on the “gay topic”, My last few comments are present on your main, front page…

        Anyway…. No I do not plan to “lie” and hold “on goping deceit” to my girlfriend, the game of comparisons dot not fare well with me and is fraknly ridiculous, between violating God’s order for sexualityy, and a relatively irrelevant “lie”, there is a WORLD of dfference, factually.

        And yes I do plan to be true with my gf in all things, when the situation will permit.

        Romans 14:14 : “I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.” in context support divergence of personal opinions and convictions between Jews accustomed to the Old Testament Laws dealing with celan or unclean FOOD, joining the new, building Christian faith and finding their reedom to eat as they see fit there! It is blatantly dishonest and a terrible move to apply this teaching of Paul out of cotnext, to different convictions regarding sexual morality, Moanti!!

        My disclaimer to my readers :

        Unbelievers are free to go their own way, of course and not expected to stop pursuing their romantic / sexual preferences to please a God they do not believe in…At their own risk and on their own decision.

        Individuals claimlng to be “Christians” must be measured, judged according to their beliefs matching what God reveals, and evidently their behavior, conduct, attitude, “lifestyle” matching God’s law in broad term of ethics and morality, ie Marriage is God’s institution designed and declared the union of one man and one woman exclusively, and “sex” is God’s gift for the two spouses to share, exclusively again….

        Any and all “believers”, opposing this simple truth about Holy Marriage and Sexuality by God’s Word and Will for His People must be pointed out as deceivers, by their own claims and / or deeds.

        This really turned wrong, and is unhealthy, so we should politely stop this discussion.

        Moanti…

        I do not want to cause you harm, or sorrow, I do consider you my sister in Christ, I only can not tolerate anymore people too vocal about their claims, when these are brutally opposing God’s revelead Truth for His People on sexual ethics and moral levels normally SO simple and clear as “one man, one woman, for life”, under the guise of “progress” and / or “reformed Christianity”…

        Take best care.. Amen.

      • X..... says:

        Hi, Moanti.

        First, thank you for your message. No I have not taken offense, I know I am not lying to my gf, but I guess you can judge I do “conceal the truth”, though my gf and I are not committed yet to warrant her knowing all I am doing, I am an adult man, not her child and I think it fair to judge, it is my freedom and more so, a vital human, social need to communicate with other persons, simply…

        To give you an idea of my actual situation, my beloved is completely foreign to Christianity, she is a Thaïland woman, and Buddhist.

        I told her I know a few gay men who are my “secular” friends, and one lesbian who is my Chrisitian friend, you.

        She was curious of the relationship I am having with you, I let her know your blog a few months ago.. Reading our comments, she was upset, I would write longgg commens to you, to (humanly) “care” for you, and talk about (Biblical) “sex” or (God’s) “love” with you, it is utterly foreign and inappropriate to her education and therefore, to her sensibility…

        My girlfiend judge I am talking “bad” when I simply mention the name of “God”, she consider it is a SIN, to talk of God revealing “truth”, of religion and “faith”, when “her” Buddhism is standing for individal research through science and reason…

        A highly and deeply complicated cultural gap I am facing with my gf, on this level of our relationship!.

        I am not guilty of “lying” but perhaps “guilty” of “hiding” the fact I communicate with you on your blog comments, lately. If my gf asks me today, do I have contact with you anymore, I will tell her the truth, but as it is now, I do not agree to any reason to cause problem further with this “truth”, her not understanding my call from the Holy Spirit of God to care for my siblings, to defend my Christian faith from what I r notice and judge is threatening for the Church, the body of Christ…

        This is simply not her “busienss” not her concern.

        I would be effecitvely prefering you edit my mention of my girlfriend and too bivous references to my “real identity” in my comments, I do not think it is so much as asking you to “partake in my plan to deceive” given what I explained to you, and pray you understand I am not lying, in any way, perhaps “hiding” my activty here but my activity here, is it “wrong”…? THIS, is the question and basis to judge my behavior of “cocnealing the truth”…

        Thank you for your understanding, whatever you decisjon to edit or not my comments. it is not a real problem to me. My girlfriend probably forget your blog adress, and she does not uderstand English much, the real problem is as I say, she does not undertand ithe “agape” name for “love”, the care for the other persons well being that is “love” extended over the simple conjugal relationship, even present in friendships and God commanfing us to express it in every of our human relations, interactions…..

        God is “love”, “agape” love, “sacrificial”, devoted love….

        I like to say, God’s love is to “help” one another…

        In French, it says “aimes ton prochain comme toi-même”, I like to do the shortcut, “AIDES ton prochain comme toi-même”, to avoid eventual confusion with romantic or sexual, erotic love only one single letter away for me, in my French language….

        Second, I am deeply, profoundly sorry for my temper taking over, I am glad you understand me to some point and agree to be more careful with your statements in your articles, using disclaimers……

        This protects YOU from sinning, from risking to give “false teaching” online to whoever may read you, my friend, the motivation driving me is my care for you and others well being with GOD, I not stop to say it…

        I am a simple person, simple minded, “poor in spirit”, I am not a “scholar”, not educated much at all, not an “intellectual”, to me there is no complication, no “many ways” about Scripture writings and teachings,on the topic of “sexuality” design, ethics, and morality, I read, and believe it is blessed by God between commited man and woman, Eden was already ideal and perfect, our parents, Adam and Eve the first human couple WAS “living the dream” the LIFE God CREATED, intended…

        Prohibiitons coming after the fall of man and woman, the coming of sin in humankind ALL derive from AFTER that point, God’s “laws” similar to the FIRST “law” of NOT eating the forbidden fruit of knowledge of good and evil, “laws” ALWAYS coming out of the GOODNESS of God for us, insitituted for the best interest of the Crown of His Creation, directing and protecting the human being and the human couple, sorry to say but indeed, Biblically only the “heterosexual” couple exists in terms of conjugal love (romance) and committment…

        Only what God created must develop and remain, as God intended.

        That distinction with “heterosexuals ” and “homosexuals” and all the rest, you, me, we know it is man-made, the group named, identified and self-identifying as being “homosexual” is build on human psychologists concept, and a modern reality…

        I already said somewhere, this term is manipulative and manipulating language, englobing the same-sex attraction but also the homosexual behavior, confusing by design, it is an activist strategy acted out from the “gay agenda” plan by malevolent politicians and lobbies…

        The Abrahamic God blessing the human “heterosexual” couple only, it does not mean “homosexual” individuals are any less of a man or a woman, it does not mean their relationships with other “gay people” are all sinful and have no value, I simply state what seems obvious to me, to God there is men and women simply, no “gays” and “straights” this division is caused by human terms forming “groups”, “communities”.

        Relationships between same-sex individuals are a vital human and social need, and bound to build on brotherhood, sisterhood, on friendship ONLY by His design and commands, by God’s prohibition of conducting homosexual behavior, expressing His Will and ideal for “heterosexual” pairing, protecting His holy Marriage, necessary to give birth to new human beings, lives ….

        Current over-population, is not a reason to remove God’s moral restrictions… Current science is not authoritative over God’s Word… By “God’s Word” I mean, written Holy Scriptures revealing God’s person and Will, “Church” and oral tradition building upon written Revelation, and the beliver’s “intuition” of the Holy Spirit of God’s “speaking” to one’s conscience this “silent voice”, this God-abiding moral compass one must strive to listen and follow, trust and obey should be their reference, their Godly source “in real life” situation, should they be called and accept to be followers of Christ..

        I think I developed by belief in another comment somewhere, maybe on your blog.. What is God’s call…? God calls to Holiness every human being, this is the truth.. Practically, living Holiness expresses mainly through serving and worshipping one’s spouse in Holy “heterosexual” Mariage for those called to it, and through serving God by serving others as a celibate, perhaps priesthood or any profession dedicated to helping others… A bit of both for people called to Godly Marriage, focusing their affectionate care on their spouse first, and on others in general, second…

        This perhaps simply but effective understanding match and extend my idea of our Lord command, to love God first, and the person you chose for spouse first, and to love our neighbor, the “outsider” as oneself, Jesus second commandment. There is no “third way”, and certainly no Scriptural third command from our Lord to live one’s Christian life, call to Holiness, in my humble knowledge.

        That idea of “gift to celibacy”…. This does not take into account the “sexual orientation” which is foreign to Scripture, it is important to know and to always remember that… Same-sex attraction, temptation may be extremy strong, but you know? Everyone is tempted to sin in different areas of their lives, to break measures of the Law God gives for one’s well being out of His goodness, best care for our best interest!

        I am sincerely compassionate of any and all human persons, individuals, to every one personal struggles with life and with sin… I do not understand, these “Christians” you say have been hatefully rejecting “gay people” unless they “change to heteros”, this is very hurtful and wrong, unbiblical and ungodly, unloving, no doubt!!

        What is Biblical to me is, “gay people” coming to Christ, interested in knowing God should be taught to consider and aknowledge their same-sex attraction as same-sex TEMPTATION, biblically speaking. Temptation, it does not make one evil and sinful in nature, nobody is guilty of being tempted, but every single human being is normally and rightfully held accountable by God, as well as by any self-respecting person and society, responsible for their reaction to temptation, their decison to take action, for certain…

        What GOD expects of “gay people”, Biblically speaking…? “Gay peopel” willing to know God MUST know God’s LAWS are given to PROTECT them, not to deprive them of their “rights”… “Gay people” MUST know they are required by God’s command to live by His standard for sexuality, required to STOP indulging in homosexual sex, because God forbids it for His People, simply… The action of indulging in homosexual sex is “breaking” God’s “law”, that is called “sinning”, God Will is to restict sexual itnimacy to the “heterosexuall” couple, the only romantic and sexual pairing blessed by God, honoring God, and the man and woman involved in holy Marriage….

        That standard is not negotiable, Moanti, god reveals, beleivers trusta dn obey, that is simple. If a person claim to be a Christian, that person MUST abide by Christian standards, there is no abuse in this and NOBODY is forced to BE chrsitians, against their will… God is the leader, God set the rules, Got created and structured, designed and declared sexuality and Marriage that way, and is it heresy and blasphemy to call it unfit or unfair because of one’s same-sex temptation, a,n extremely small portion of people, a minority shaking the whole building of the body of Christ, have no place, no room for division should they hold on their claims and attempts to CHANGE god’s laws, they do not have the authority, simply and must pay the price,, if they dare try too much…

        The price is not physcial violenc,e but proper explment from thr Chruch, hopefully leading the defiant Crhsitans to rpeentence and abck to, oebidfence… Amen.

        “In a nutshell” as this English expression says, the human being is a “moral agent” FREE to serve God and worship good, pro-creating good (LIFE) with God spirtually, or physically with their spouse of choice (given the spouse is HUMAN (duh!), NOT related by blood, and one person of the opposite sex, bv God’s design and specific requirements for Holy Marriage, these mandatory conditions must be met in order to DESERVE His GIFT of blessed, Godly sexuality, of pure intimacy shared with one’s spouse), or to serve the devil and worship evil…… Causing harm and death.

        Moanti… “internal struggles” are the common lot of any and all human beings this is normal, God nowhere promises temptation to sin will stop to believers and followers of Christ. Me personally, I sometimes struggle with opposite sex temptation, to not lust after other women, than the one I chose to give ALL my care and affection, it is not easy for anyone to live a live please to God in our times, it is terrible, this world we live in is saturated with “sex” all around, with political stuggles for power, the nuclear threat, the extremist terrorist threat, extreme poverty, our planet natural resources abuse, etc, etc ..

        Third, your “affiliates”…

        I have followed the references links you are presenting at the end of this page of your blog here :

        https://moanti.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/gaychristians/#20

        I find this site :

        http://www.gaychristian101.com/

        Obvious “pro-gay” propaganda website, disguised as God honoring Christianity…

        I find this site :

        http://www.jesusfamilies.org/HotTopicsTOC.htm

        Appearing “clean”, not “pro-gay” or even related to the gay “agenda” or community, it does indeed adress and appropriately teaches and convey God’s Word and Will on the “gay topic”, judging the practice of homosexuality to be sinful because harming God’s design to restrict human sexual expression to committed “heterosexual” spouses, but clearly this website is also dangerously focusing on the person of Jesus Christ ONLY, not aknowledging the Whole Revelation of God through Scriptures, the Holy Spirit working through Bible Authors, and onward through believers…

        I find this site :

        http://www.libchrist.com/index.html

        I read this website promotes, “loving sexuality regardless of marital status or natural sexual orientation.” …. Regardless of what God, says then!

        I find this site :

        http://www.otkenyer.hu/truluck/index.html

        This is the worst of all your references links, it is a terrible website, do you know, Moanti do you read what is says..?

        On this page content, for example :

        http://www.otkenyer.hu/truluck/the_bible_and_homosexuality.html

        Find my answer to these God awful claims, in small caps…

        THE USE OF THE BIBLE TO CONDEMN LESBIANS AND GAYS VIOLATES SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLES OF TRANSLATION AND INTERPRETATION AND IS ACADEMICALLY UNSOUND, INDEFENSIBLE, IRRESPONSIBLE, AND IGNORANT!

        “Lesbans” and “gays” are socially created sub-identities, Scriptures condemn the action of engaging in homosexual sex, not “homosexual people”, not the “homosexual orientation”.

        THE BIBLE IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGES NEVER CONDEMNS SAME SEX ROMANTIC LOVE AS SIN.

        Please stop with “original language” mistranslation claims, you give a bad name to committed professional translators of the Holy Scripture throughout History, and you ignore said History gives bulletproof records of early teachings of the Church already condemning of homosexual sex…

        God does not says specifically in Scriptures that it’s wrong to shoot someone with a bow, that abuse of drugs is harmful or for your claim, that incestuous romantic love between brother and sister is sin, either.. Does the absence of “written law” adressing these things, authorizes such behaviors, “making” them praise worthy and God honoring..?

        THE BIBLE GIVES POSITIVE SUPPORT FOR SAME SEX COMMITTED RELATIONSHIPS
        IN STORIES ABOUT RUTH AND NAOMI IN THE BOOK OF RUTH AND DAVID AND JONATHAN IN I SAMUEL 18-20 AND II SAMUEL 1.

        Lie. these persons were CLOSE AND DEVOUT FRIENDS, not “homosexual partners”. Respect Biblical figures, if you claim to be a believer. it is the minimum to give!

        BIBLE TRANSLATORS AND PUBLISHERS WHO PERSIST IN USING EVIL HOMOPHOBIC “TRANSLATIONS FROM HELL” TO WOUND AND DESTROY LESBIANS AND GAYS MUST BE CHALLENGED AND CORRECTED.

        “Evil homophobic translations”…. Well, the idea to name “homosexual” a person with the “homosexual orientation” and ALSO a person conducting “homosexual behavior” is your political lobbies, activists idea, you go complain to them to create less confusing terms that modern translations of Scriptures could use then, thank you for standing corrected…

        JESUS NEVER MENTIONED HOMOSEXUALITY. DISTORTION OF THE GOSPEL INTO ATTACKS ON HOMOSEXUALS DEMANDS A CLEAR AND EFFECTIVE RESPONSE NOW!

        Because Jesus had simply no use to mention it. Christ ministry took place among the Jews, who were educated by their Thorah already prohibiting homosexual sex… Next, how do you know for sure, Jesus spoke of it or not, maybe Scriptures scrolls adressing it were never found..? Also, the four Gospels are firmly attesting Jesus upheld ALL the Law and the Prophets, it is very, very unlikely the prohibition to conduct homosexual acts would have been missed by the Lord, it was His chance to reform it publicly but nothing came… Finally, Jesus re-issued God’s design and ideal for “heterosexual” sexuality within “heterosexual” Marriage.

        Moanti, why, why is this site a reference, a source for you..? 😦

        My words, that I am struggling to not “hate” the “gay Christians” movement … Well, it is difficult to separate the sin from the sinner, is this distinction even Biblical or human tradition..? Paul condemns the sin along with the sinner, you know…? But I trust writings as well as tradtion, and to hate the sin, but lvoe the sinenr is the best thing to do…

        I am tempted to “hate” this “group”, but I do not give in to this, and do not allow myself to this low… I fight this temptation diligently, but your, and the most of “gay Chrstians” commitment to oppose God’s word with arguments and convenient interpetations, this behavior I can witness left and right on the web from this “community”, is, was making my blood boil and a dangerous teasing, this is what I say and the reason of my seemingly “hateful” comments, lately…

        You can rest assured of this, I am not “hateful”, and not holding grudge, or bad intention to cause harm, I am simply and please, understandably upset, where i simply direct you, to God’s Will, design for his People, and ideal for human sexualtiy and Marriage, “one man, one woman, for life”, I get problem and face “resistance” and “arguments”… I did not like the way it turned out, my caring effforts not matching my expectations of helping you, of reasoning you OUT of your self-deceit, sorry for this word, again…

        I am deeply sorry for my behavior here, with you, and with Angela too, I am just a human person, I try to express the image of God by follwing the example set by Jesus, in mty “treatment” of others, in my interpersonal relations, and really am committed to see the image of God in every, EVERY human being!

        I sometimes fail miserably, to express that goodness of our Lord… Yes.

        To give you an idea of my faith, this maybe very childish of me, but I really try to see Jesus Christ in every man, and to see God’s chosen Mother for His Son, Mary in every woman…

        I tell you, I am a simple minded man….

        I like you and me to keep our comments short and simple, concise, to the point, indeed.. This one is probably my longest, but I had much to express and my apologies to do for my bad temper.. If I write again here, I will TRY to keep it short and easy!

        Please take care of yourself, our conflcit seems to find a way out, I am coutning on you to use cautious disclaimers on your articles… Please forgive my failure(s) to follow the goodness of our Lord, I am a passionate, fervent Christian, but one weak human too… I learn with you, my temper mess up very much, when I face perceived injustice, and wilful disobedience to God, and how much more by people I value..

        Take care, my “lesbian” friend and sister in Christ.

      • Dear X,
        I only have a few minutes to write at the moment, and will respond more tomorrow. I just didn’t want to go to sleep without telling you that I so appreciate your heartfelt message and totally understand, and I am honored to be your friend. Thank you for your words and your care and know that I care for you as well. I will also have to delete the comments referencing your gf tomorrow. Speaking of references, when you said “sites affiliated with your website,” I took this statement too literally, as if you thought there were other websites that I was involved in writing or other websites that were promoting my website…. Now that you mention they are “references,” I am embarrassed to admit that I don’t recognize most of them you listed, but at some point must have found an idea or a quote from those sites and felt the need to give their idea credit. But my reference of them doesn’t mean that I agree with them in their wholeness. Also consider they were most likely referenced years ago when I was writing my main site and the content has likely been altered since that time, as these are not websites I frequent. I do recognize the gaychristian101 site, and know this was because of one article I read about the historical extra-Biblical usage of the word arsenokoites, but I remember not agreeing with some other things they wrote of other gay topics… So perhaps another disclaimer should be that “the views expressed in the references are not necessarily the views held by me….” So THANK YOU for pointing this out to me… As some of what you revealed that these sites said are horrifying to me and I do not agree with them on points mentioned. But I want to give you an even BIGGER THANK YOU for your friendship and your message to me!!! I will write more tomorrow…. Prayers for you X, until then.
        Your friend and sister in Christ,
        Moanti

      • X..... says:

        Hi, Moanti,

        Thank you for your message, short is okay!

        [Portion deleted by request of the commenter.]

        I am sorry I give you chore to do…

        I do not wish to participate much anymore to your blog, I feel my “duty” here is done and I am glad you aknoweldge my good will to HELP you and others, readers…

        You adding disclaimers to your articles, will satisfy me and I pray for you so much!!!

        Reference means source to me, I have no idea do you frequent or post in these sites or not, but these websites you reference are all, dubious in their own right… 😦

        Please stay cautious, one’s online activity It is indeed a “web, ties binding us!

        Your latest references for me to check in your comments, I am sorry the videos are a no go for me, I do not understand spoken English much at all because I am French and lack practice to listen it, I get only written English text…

        Something I forgot to adress in my previous comment, I understand every person is different and not all “gay Christians” are the same, naturally….

        But I find the most of “gay Christians” websites and therefore, representative “groups” are pleading for homosexual sex and “love” within the Church, are attacking God’s order, design and ideal for human sexuality and Marriage…

        Here, what God says about such behaviors and people holding on conducting it…

        ◄ 2 Timothy 3:5 ►

        New Living Translation
        They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!

        ◄ Revelation 3:16 ►

        New Living Translation
        But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth!

        I believe you are sincere in your faith but also, sincerely trapped in much self-deceit…
        I pray that will understand and agree my will is to help you stand GOOD with our God..

        Moanti… Take care.
        Your brother in Christ.

      • Hello X,
        I must apologize for the delay in my response, as I’m feeling very ill the past few days, so I will keep this short and do the edits when I’m feeling better. Before I forget, I do have some good news about one of the videos, “new world order Bible versions.” There is one on YouTube that is translated into French! Here it is: http://youtu.be/0MH2aRB8zy4 I know this is a full length film so I don’t expect you to watch this immediately, but I would kindly ask you to watch this as soon as you are able, as I would REALLY like to know your reaction as a Christian. I only wish the video of a really profound sermon on repentance was available in your language, but sadly, that one is not. As a Christian brother, I would like to know your take on each of these, but the one will have to do…. Please let me know when you are able to watch it and what you think.

        Again, I appreciate your effort with me and know it’s coming from a place of wanting to help me as well as others. I also felt called by The Lord to help you when we first spoke, and it’s clear that some good fruit came from this, as I think before we spoke, your ideas towards gays were much less compassionate and more contemptuous due to your past traumatic incident (which is humanly understandable). But now, although your words can be easily misunderstood as coming from a hateful motivation, I feel that you have genuine care in what you’re trying to do, and I appreciate that and your apologies for the times that you’re delivery was demeaning and of course forgive you.

        Thank you for the tips of more disclaimers, as I feel this is a really good idea (both practically and even more so spiritually) so I’ll be implementing this into the website soon. I have one I’ve re-written for the main site and would like to share it with you…

        Here is the original OLD one (for comparison purposes):
        “Disclaimer: The above information provided is just a different way of reading the Bible in its interpretation. It is not to say that the Bible is wrong, but that we may be reading it incorrectly. I urge you to research the Bible for yourself and pray to God to show you the truth of His word. Do not simply rely on the human interpretation of what you have been told by others, but listen to what the Lord speaks to your heart with discernment. I pray that I am not misleading anyone, but have peace and assurance that God is loving and forgiving and wants us all to come to Him and not be turned away by those who persecute and claim His name.”

        Here is the NEW updated one (longer, but more carefully worded important considerations):
        “Disclaimer: The above information provided are interpretations based on linguistic and contextual observations and is in no way meant to be used as “proof,” but rather should be viewed as a collection of supplementary evidence. This is not to be used as a replacement for written Scripture, but rather a possible way of interpreting its meaning. This is not at all to say that the Bible is wrong, but that one might be able to interpret the meaning in more than one way with the additional evidence considered. Before any final decisions are made, the reader is encouraged to do the following: 1) Consider ALL of the evidence (both “for” and “against”) rather than only seeing what you want it to say or only what you’ve been told it says. 2) Research these findings within their context and the original language for yourself and let the words of Scripture interpret Scripture (based on all of their actual Biblical usage) rather than relying on changing outside definitions that don’t fit context and/or the whole of the Scriptural message. 3) Pray extensively (throughout the process) for God’s guidance to discern meaning rather than relying solely on incomplete human teachings and popular conjectures. 4) After this process is adequately explored, proceed by fully following your individual conviction as permitted by the grace and will of God for your life. I pray that this research is not misleading to anyone, but rather used to be Spiritually fruitful and multiply believers. As the author relaying this content, I have full peace and assurance that God is loving and forgiving and wants all to come to Him and not be turned away by discriminating humans who deny a group of potential followers from His salvation. Above all, remember that the perfect blood shed by our only Savior sanctifies us and covers our human mistakes by His grace to all of those who believe on Him.”

        I am going to have to edit this in soon when I’m feeling better. Please pray I feel better. I’ve got to go for now and lay down. I had a few more things to say, but will have to wait. Thanks.
        Your sister in Christ,
        Moanti

      • Christian57 says:

        Hi, Moanti.

        I am sorry to learn you are going through sickness lately… I have been pressuring you on your blog with my comments the last few weeks in such a bold fashion, I am probably one of the causes for your hard time…

        I am sincerely sorry again for my anger / temper issues, I learn with this experience, this is one of my weakest area I must focus on mastering; with the help of the Holy Spirit to harvest the good fruits of peace, patience and kindness…

        You can rest assured, you are included in my prayers!!

        I must thank you again, you agree to “cover” my “online identity” here, editing my references to my gf, and typos… It is not important but I appreciate.

        One sligthly more important request I present to you… I am “switching” to post online under the tag “Christian57” and would appreciate so much more, if you can edit all of my recent comments poster name with that nickname, for me…?

        Since “Anthony” is my brother name, I feel like a thief ha ha, and “X…..” is too revealing of my real name, and identity…..

        On your main page, this is too obvious, as I agreed to satiusfy the curiosity of Gary, (though i revealed publicly my “online identity” as far as the 5 June I think there) but it is turning to his attempts to “kill the messenger”. framing me a “homophobe” most likely… :/

        My consideration for “gay people”, was never wrong, I never held in low esteem, a group of persons based on their sensibility, or sexuality, this is SURE…

        My problem is with those seeking to legitimate the homosexual behavior within Chrsitianity,n regardless are they gay, straight, or even “Chrisitians”…

        I do not discriminate in my stand against lie and deceit!

        Indeed, my motivation is clear, and is CHRISTIAN CHARITY, I am glad you can see through my poor way of expressing it, and forgive my rude behavior with you…

        Next…

        Thank you for the movie you find in French, I have researched on the subject of “the New World Order Bible” a few days ago, and find this documentary is treating of the case, most of current Bible translations are more and more edited, and may be a part of “The Devil’s New World Order” of one world, one religion… That the English King James Bible is the most faithfullly translated version remaining available, historically….

        Hmm…. I will study this soon and discuss it with you, yes.

        You take care, my friend and sister in Christ.

      • Hello there Christian57,
        Just a quick note, as I don’t feel well still, but I don’t think wordpress will allow me to edit your own username on the comments. Is that what you were asking me to do? Maybe you could change them somehow on your end? I’m just not sure how that works… I will for sure see if I can, but if not, would you like me to delete your full comments under your other names, or just keep them and edit what we already discussed? I’m sorry I don’t have easy access to a PC and doing it on my phone is a nightmare, but I will look into it as soon as I’m feeling better. Thanks for everything! I’m excited when you get to watch the video and started watching it again today! The first 5 minutes are just clips about the New World Order, and then it gets into the translation stuff. Another really interesting part I like is about 30 minutes in when it shows the history of the King James Bible. I had no idea the intentional corruption of the Latin Bible that came before it (held by the Catholic Church of the time) until I saw this. I hope it translates well enough into French! I guess it’s just subtitled, but since you can read English, you can always pause it in parts to see the side by side comparisons of the changed or altered verses, (something I did to really study it.) It’s really interesting, but also quite worrisome, because now I can totally see in my own life where atheists and those from other religions have used these new translations to try to discredit the Bible and Jesus (especially) to me and others. But the King James is totally clear and can’t be argued! You are also in my prayers and thanks for yours!! *hugs*
        Your friend and sister in Christ,
        Moanti

      • Christian57 says:

        Moanti,

        Sorry I posted too fast, missing the most important!

        Your new disclaimer is really getting good, I am glad you find me helpful!!

        I am satisfied with how things are going finally…. You understand my will, my wish with you! 🙂

        Personal information… My trauma, is not “haunting” me anymore, for many months now I am at peace with this. I always knew this offender was “just” that, an offender, I never related him to “the gay community”, my honest word.

        I am offended “Gary” seems to judge otherwise and this man better behave in his future comments to me, and about me.

        Respect is due no matter the disagreement.

        Take best care Moanti, bye for now.

      • Christian57 says:

        Hello, Moanti.

        Yes I wanted to know, if you could change my username, in my comments.

        On my end, I can not do anything once posted….

        It is okay if not, you hunting for my typos (thanks!!) and my mention of my girlfriend, and of my real name, identity will do! Take your time, look what you can do about this, when you will have the chance using a proper computer, no problem!! 🙂

        I will watch the movie someday soon yes, I also need to take care of my health, so much… I suffer from social anxiety and skin disease from this negative stress, a vicious circle…

        Please, let us pray for our mutual well being, and even more, for our well standing with our GOD, our communion with the Holy Spirit leading and healing us… Amen, and thank you very much, sister!!

    • mARQUESAS2046 says:

      BULLSHIT! I STUDIED LATIN AND VERY FLUENT IN IT TOO QUIT LYING TO URSELF ABOUT WHAT THE WORD SAYS HOMOSEXUAL ACTS IS ADBONINATION AND GOES AGAINST PROCREATION ALSO SODOMY MEANS ANAL RAPE, DID YOU READ WHAT I SAID “ANAL RAPE” SO YOU ANSWERED YOUR OWN THEORY ON APPROVING RAPE FOR UNNATURAL SEX ACTS AGAINST GOD! YOU ARE A CHILD OF NIMROD WHO STARTED THIS BULLBUY BULLSHIT AND THE DEMON IN YOU CONTROLS YOUR MIND THOUGHTS AND ACTIONS WHEN JUDGEMENT COMES HOW YOU GONNA EXPLAIN TO THE DIVINE!

  12. Anthony says:

    Before you come up with the argument of isolating this prohibition to “cultic rituals”, PAUL refreshed GOD’S VERDICT on moral sins, in a totally different era and culture, context and this was done, by the Apostle guided by the Holy Spirit of God, AFTER THE COMING, DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST for our EDIFICATION….

    The natural law…

    I quote : “The ability of the human mind to figure things out on its own based on observation is known as “reason”. Human beings can determine “by reason the good and the evil, the truth from the lie. . . .”

    Doesn’t change, humans of the past are sharing the same human nature with humans of today, and humans of today,do share the same nature humans of the future will inherit…

    So does the Eternal, MORAL LAW of GOD recorded and REVEALED in Biblical Scriptures for HIS CHILDREN, HIS BELIEVERS AND FOLLOWERS, remains the same, unchanging and unchangeable…

    No murder, no theft, no adultery, no sexual immorality, namely incest, homosexuality, bestiality (found written in that tidy order of gravity, in Sacred Scriptures) and the others not mentioned in Scriptures are certainly not “okay” just for the reason of not being explicitely and specifically adressed…

    WHO in their right (proceeding from basic human morality) mind on EARTH will advocate for necrophilia, pedophilia and what ever else of these “paraphilias” to be acceptable…?

    Basically and the rule of thumb for OBEDIENT Chrisitans summarizes, ANY AND ALL sexual deviance from the only one blessed sexual activity, the one shared by committed man and woman is God-forsaken…

    AMEN and sorry for the caps, it is to put emphasis where emphasis is due!!

  13. NoHateOnlyLove says:

    Jesus: “Love thy neighbor!”
    Disciple: “What if they’re gay?”
    Jesus: “Did I stutter?”

    Sorry, I know I’m waaay late to the party here, but after reading through the entire article and the comments I just felt like something positive should be at the bottom.

    I’m not gay, nor am I a Christian. I have a healthy love for both though, and fail to see why they should mutually exclusive. If anything your studies of the bible would make me a believer faster than the “fundamentalists”.

    So please, never give up your faith. Never let the close minded bigots wear you down. Because you’ll always have at least one person who believes in and loves you, and it sounds like you have a pretty solid relationship with him.

  14. NoHateOnlyLove says:

    Jesus: “Love thy neighbor!”
    Disciple: “What if they’re gay?”

    Jesus: “Did I stutter?”

    Sorry, I know I’m waaay late to the party here, but after reading through the entire article and the comments I just felt like something positive should be at the bottom.

    I’m not gay, nor am I a Christian. I have a healthy love for both though, and fail to see why they should mutually exclusive. If anything your studies of the bible would make me a believer faster than the “fundamentalists”.

    So please, never give up your faith. Never let the close minded bigots wear you down. Because you’ll always have at least one person who believes in and loves you, and it sounds like you have a pretty solid relationship with him.

    • Dear NoHateOnlyLove,
      I genuinely appreciate your comments thank you from the bottom of my heart! It can be discouraging sometimes to be so frequently attacked and my identity in Christ questioned just because of my sexual orientation. Even more hurtful to me is that one of the commenters on this thread, I consider a friend, but what started as “loving condemnation” turned into unhealthy mocking and an accusation of committing the unforgivable sin and being being inspired by Satan. So needless to say, your words are encouraging. I would like to recopy a portion of what you said for emphasis purposes to anyone reading, because I think that this is a strong statement to the alternate perspective that I present in order to be spiritually fruitful and multiply believers: “I’m not gay, nor am I a Christian. I have a healthy love for both though, and fail to see why they should mutually exclusive. If anything your studies of the bible would make me a believer faster than the “fundamentalists”.”
      Thank you again!
      With love,
      Moanti

  15. Christian57 says:

    Hello, Moanti.

    I find you comment late today, and while I was set to not interact with you anymore online for the sake of mutual peace, I must write this message to properly adress and correct what I estimate are exagerated statements you have made, hopefully easing your ill feelings about me and setting things right between us with respect, with compassion and with truth, once and for all…

    Adressing the message above…

    Obviously, the Lord’s command to “love” unconditionally self and others must be encouraged always, this should go without saying. However, please always bear right in mind, this “Agape” love is “Godly love”, a true challenge to live and experience daily, deeply, equally made of expressing genuine compassion to every sinner AND bold condemnation of sin, of every sin… Christian’s relation to sexual sin must specifically be kept in close check, as this type of sin defiles a person’s body, while others sins do not, according to Saint Paul… Our body have been redeemed by Christ and belong to God, not anymore to self as slaves and tools of sin, this explains that seemingly indiscrete “care”, focus on sexual issues within Christianity.

    “Mutually exclusive” … It is totally understandable and reasonable, when professing Christians, “gay” or “bi” or whatever else there is, no discrimination here as this is not a matter of “sexual orientation” but one of sexual BEHAVIOR, when a professing Christian is appearing committed to promote sexual sin, on topic, is set to advocate for homosexual behavior within Christianity, a line has been crossed and constitutes reason enough to exclude such “believer” from the body of Christ, to hopefully trigger their repentence from the ensuing exclusion and prevent corruption of others, according to the Christian doctrine itself… Amen.

    Your comment, now, Moanti…

    “It can be discouraging sometimes to be so frequently attacked and my identity in Christ questioned just because of my sexual orientation. Even more hurtful to me is that one of the commenters on this thread, I consider a friend, but what started as “loving condemnation” turned into unhealthy mocking and an accusation of committing the unforgivable sin and being inspired by Satan.”

    I will try to be brief (and probably fail this!) and clear as possible. Please understand I am not writing to start an argument with you, but to provide public evidence of my “actually” past actions here…

    First, thank you for considering me a friend… I remember writing this, to you :

    “You and me are friends all right, but our exchange on the question of the acceptability of same-sex sexual behavior within Christianity has reached a dead end.”

    Though we were never close enough to really be friends in all honesty, our communication has and is broken because of this problem indeed, sadly… But you can be certain I am compassionate of you whatever happened, and happens…

    I agree with some of your words on our dialogue history, my “loving condemnation” position, attitude with others in general, and with professing Christians specifically, with you personally was and is the “famous” and proper Christian, Jesus exemplary care “to love the sinner, and to hate the sin” … At least I tried and I am really sorry I probably failed this too, still I confirm you this is and remain totally actual to me, a really important, primordial aspect of my walk with Christ, through my interaction with others.

    However… Your other statements are mostly untrue, causing you to wrongly grant yourself “unearned victim status” with this situation, unjustly vilifying me as your persecutor enemy… All reasons enough for me to sit and write to you once more, one last time on a personal level.

    We had unhealthy tension and pressure in our verbal exchanges, yes, this is sure… But the tone was never mockery, not even once. I always have respected you, I do respect you, and seriously have no idea why you chose this term to be the most fitting of all, at all… It simply is not true. I am bold to insist on your diligence to correct your misunderstanding now, if that was your, or is among your perceived tone from my messages to you, Moanti as it was not intended by any mean, in no way and I apologize nonetheless, if that so!

    After… You write clearly, to you I am guilty toward you of “an accusation of committing the unforgivable sin and being inspired by Satan.” … I must quote myself on this problem to clear up the truth of my past actions, in order to point you back to my words, statements that you either skipped through inadvertently, or decided to ignore willfully and / or twist the meaning for unknown reason, I do not want to know…

    first, and most importantly from here, this was my caring message to your anguish, distress…

    https://moanti.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/gaychristians/#comment-8013

    “Thank you, I do not accuse you, but diligently draw your attention, to be very careful every step you take with God’s moral laws…. Please note I also warned Gary and John R for themselves, not just you and really not for causing you or them wrong…”

    From here, this was my first actual explanation of what I meant with “unforgivable sin” in this context, please NOTE I was adressing John R, and not you, please read again carefully…

    https://moanti.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/gaychristians/#comment-7993

    “You, and any professing Christian should be well inspired to read this article very carefully, it does disprove the whole lot of Moanti’s “alternative perspective” and “pro-gay Theology” assertions in general, their wishful interpretations seeking to legitimize same-sex sexual behavior as God honoring and a valid Christian lifestyle…..

    I repeat myself and restate this, causing distress or not, this is dangerously close to committing the unforgivable sin, to seek this happening…

    The unforgivable sin is disbelief in God’s goodness to forgive and to save. I find it logic, people committed to demean and to devalue God’s moral teachings for selfish, personal gain or misplaced “compassion” are ultimately promoting evil, they do not believe in God’s goodness or they would NEVER DARE side with the enemy, opposing the good laws of our caring, loving God…”

    I explained there and explain plainly again what I meant with “unforgivable sin” in context of my messages, and was already stressing to you, that it was not a personal accusation against you, on several occasions I repeated my statements were “only” warnings, I have issued as my “desperate” attempt, “last resort” to “save”, NOT to condemn…

    https://moanti.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/gaychristians/#comment-8008

    “Second, I use words “may well be”, “dangerously close to be” in my warning against committing the “unforgvable sin”, this one sin is continual, willful, chosen unbelief in God’s goodness for us, which I remind you is expressed by God’s Laws guiding and protecting us, this is the sin of rejecting God’s offer of redemption, available to all in Jesus Christ sacrifical atonement for one’s sins, agree, correct..?

    http://www.gotquestions.org/blasphemy-Holy-Spirit.html

    Then a person chosing to reject the Biblical teachings of same-sex sexual behavior to BE a sin against God BY HIS LAW no matter how hard you want it not to say this, it does. A person practicing without remorse, and / or promoting homosexuality as good, and not sinful in a vocal, militant manner is dangerously close to continual, willful, chosen unbelief in God’s merciful grace to save one trapped in this sin.

    Does this make sense and speaks TRUTH, is this reasonable, using correct logic…?

    I think it is, or you tell me.”

    I am sorry for the space this takes, quoting myself and linking my previous messages but it is necessary, for me to help you out of your misunderstanding of my words as they stand, Moanti…

    Summary…

    In fact, I first warned “Gary” of the “unforgivable sin” reality, because he was stepping there insulting the Holy Spirit I obeyed with his improper “ad hominem” arguments, judging me driven by hidden and twisted motivations, attacking my goodwill to help you and other readers, specifically professing Christians curious of the topic or struggling with sexual issues to learn from God’s word the liberating, revealed, objective truth and consequently, hopefully wake to the Holy Spirit presence and support, and enjoy genuine growth in their Christian edification…

    My warning to John R to watch himself of this “unforgivable sin”, I issued for his sinful action of advocating same-sex sexual relations (and advocate for “gay marriage…) within Christianity. After WEEKS trying to reason you and with you, coming across this man’s arguments attacking what is God’s intention for sexuality and Marriage according to sound, sober, actual and genuine Christian doctrine, I concluded this is effectively dangerously close to insulting, to blaspheming the Holy Spirit revealing such are sins, to advocate they are God honoring instead of sins, so there…

    My warning to you, I issued before or after I adressed John R misconduct, I forget and you know it certainly stand for the exact same fault John R committed to carry against God, not another…

    This is how it went, at least as far as I know and remember chronologically, in all honesty…

    Now then, Moanti…

    I pray you can be honest enough to agree with me on the fact, the truth my “warning” was “just” that, a warning and not an “accusation”, absolutely not personal and exclusive from me to you because shared by others than you, I wrote in a way more stressing manner to John R than I wrote to you because indeed I cared to not harm your sensibility unnecessarily. My “warning” had nothing to do “just because of” your or their “sexual orientation”, John R not presenting himself as “homosexual”, but had ALL to do with what statements were being made publicly, and what intentions were being pursued openly…

    My “warning” also had nothing to do with you studying Biblical Scriptures in their original language either by any stretch, I remember you claiming I “attacked” you on this activity often times while I certainly never did… I urge you to please support your claim with evidence by quoting me on this unfair action and judgment, I know to have never done…!!

    Lastly, I stated the fact to side with the enemy, opposing God is a self-willed act, not inspired by the Holy Spirit, obviously part of God and for God… I did not go further than stating this truth, the fact opposing God is inspired by the opponent, by Satan follows by reasonable logic, I am sorry to say, to state this sober truth!

    Okay… My comment is long but I believe is, was necessary to talk things out a last, proper time to hopefully solve remaining problems between you and me…

    Matthew 12:37

    A Tree Recognized by its Fruit

    …36″But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37″For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

    I have acted acccording to the Lord’s instructions and gave fair account for every of my words toward you and everybody here online. for this, I can not be faulted.

    I have “judged” according to JUSTICE, from what you and them said, wrote, expressed in words, in public comments, and for this, I can not be faulted.

    Should issues remain in your feelings toward me, ANYWAY my “judgments” are not definitive, I am not God and certainly every of us living human being is subject to change until our last breath, so please you take it easy with me, from me at any rate, Moanti…

    Should you wish to reply to my message, please abstain to argue with what evidences I have presented, I assume they are self-evident and I do not care to have “the last word” with you but to be true, fair and kind to you.

    I thank you for everything we went through in the end, as the positive outcome the negative in our ever learning experience of Christian life and personal, human interaction, and wish you will not carry any longer, any ill feeling about me, and as I said lastly to you, I pray for your good and right evolution with God, the Biblical, Abrahamic God, Moanti, you can rest assured of this, on my end, about my opinion of you and attitude toward you….

    This is probably the last message that I agree to write “on a personal level” to you, yes… If I write again here, it will be more generally, for mutual peace reasons.

    I still recall to have “promised” you to watch and tell you what I get from this “New World Order” movie and Bible edition, I did set it aside for months, but I do not forget…

    Someday, when, I do not know but someday, I will watch it and tell you!

    Good bye,
    Take best care…
    Xavier.

    • Hi Xavier,
      I’m sorry it took me so long to post this. I started replying to you the day it was sent, but it’s been a difficult few weeks between dealing with a pervasive work-training injury, my injured cat, and now learning of a death of one of my old good friends. :,( So I’m sorry it’s taken me some time to respond. I didn’t realize your comment was pending and thought it was already approved when it was sent. I still don’t know how WordPress decides this. But anyway, thanks for your comment! I appreciate you trying to clear some things up and that you don’t want any ill feelings, as neither do I! Looking back on our dialog, there appears to be some misunderstandings, and for this I apologize. Truly this all comes down to our individual perception and the heightened emotion of everything in the moment. Re-reading some of your comments now, I can see your care (as I always have), but truly I felt attacked in the moment, more than just by you, and I’ll explain that in a bit… You know I expressed the fear I had about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and the confusion I had of what it means (because there’s alternate translational meanings), as it’s always something that’s terrified me since I was a child because it’s the 1 unforgivable sin, aside from rejecting Christ by the time of death. So when you said these things to me, even insinuating that I might be “close to committing it,” I was in a heightened state of fear and I genuinely felt like you were accusing me of committing it. This fear reaction started for me when you quoted the verse as relatable about “calling good evil and evil good,” and I felt terrified that if my studies on this topic were in error, than that might make me guilty of this unforgivable sin and I felt like this is what you were saying by your first comment on this to me… So once that entered my mind, I went into a downward spiral of unstable fear that’s taken a long time to get out of…

      I’ll be honest that I can’t even begin to tell you the magnitude of how I was negatively affected by your warnings, which in my own perception at the time appeared to me as accusations and opened me up to one of the worst spiritual warfare attacks of my life aside from my first battle regarding my orientation and stance with God. This lasted for even after we talked and I was so distressed that I could barely stand it and felt consumed by all of it. Unredeemable, unforgivable, abandoned by God, lost forever and damned for eternity are a few words/phrases that came to mind (none of which you said, but rather this is what I associate with committing this sin.) It made me fear these things might be true for me by your “warnings” (if my studies were in error) and it left me for a period of time feeling that I might be condemned without any hope for restoration to God, which is truly a mind trapped in a hell on earth. That kind of fear, that you are without hope, caused me to doubt my own salvation. Not my faith, but my salvation. It caused me to feel that there was no hope for me, had I committed such an unforgivable act. This is where my perception of your accusations took me; into a deep despair and horrific fear that I may be without salvation. It felt like my heart and soul had been electrocuted and mutilated beyond repair and I could physically feel this heavy weight in every cell of my entire body of the paralyzing fear of condemnation that could never be undone if it were true. I understand this may sound dramatic to you, but truly, my feelings on this were more intensely negative than I can rightfully put into words. So in this absolute frozen terror, I couldn’t even stop to think clearly at the words you were saying and perceived them all as accusatory. So whatever you might have said to someone else regarding this made me feel as it was also directed towards me since you did insinuate this on more than one occasion to me directly, or about me to others in your comments. But I do now understand they were warnings rather than accusations, but did not at the time.

      I honestly can say that I have never been so affected by someone’s words on here in all my life as I was by yours, and this is most likely because I consider you as my friend. I’m sorry that I took some things too personally. I can usually take criticism quite well from strangers on this topic, but as I said before, it was a lot harder to hear from you because I did consider you my friend… Now in your last comment you said, “Though we were never close enough to really be friends in all honesty…” I really thought differently, so I was subject to much more personal hurt from your words as seeing you as my friend. I know you’ve since deleted my emails from the past and may have forgotten our deep personal conversations… I found you in a time of your great pain and in my own compassion guided by the Agape love of God through the Holy Spirit, felt called to reach out to you. I reached out to you first to help you out of your traumatic pain and wanted you to feel a good impression of a gay Christian since all you knew before was negative trauma. Aside from anything having to do with this topic, I did try to steer you away from deceiving works-based doctrines that you said you found to be “attractive” at that time (Islam and Jehovah’s Witness) and for you to find healing in Christ instead. I felt I did a good service to you in our beginnings and hopefully helped to increase your faith (which you often called “fragile” and “weak” back then). I can tell that you’ve grown in your faith since this time, so for this I must praise. God!

      So when you came back into my life posing as a stranger to condemn *all of what I had found in my Bible studies from the original language (*because that is the content of most of this entire website, hence my usage of those words), it was hurtful and more than anything, you spiritually terrified me. So when you reappeared after a time of absence and posed as a stranger and criticized my findings on my website, it was not something I have experienced by one I consider as a friend. It threw me (for lack of a better term) and was probably not the best approach of “reuniting” because I felt deceived and hurt right from the beginning and this could cloud my perception by questioning your intentions. Another thing is that I am cautious to reveal my own identity on here and had really opened up to you in the past, (unlike most on here.) So my open interaction with you was a bigger deal to me than it was to you I suppose. :/ But that’s okay… Thanks for being honest.

      The only reason I used the word “unhealthy mocking” was because of your last comment you left randomly more recently. Someone else (not you) had said: “YOU ARE A CHILD OF NIMROD WHO STARTED THIS BULLBUY BULLSHIT AND THE DEMON IN YOU CONTROLS YOUR MIND THOUGHTS AND ACTIONS WHEN JUDGEMENT COMES HOW YOU GONNA EXPLAIN TO THE DIVINE!
      And you randomly commented with:
      Christian57 on September 18, 2015 at 3:18 pm
      A “child of Nimrod”! ^^

      To me, it appeared that you got a kick out of this and agreed with the awful accusations of this person. Even the “^^” cheery little face felt like mocking to me… This was the last I’ve heard from you, so to me it felt like things had taken an even more discouraging turn and led to an unhealthy mocking. You’re welcome to explain to me what you meant by this, if you’d like…. But do you even know what a “child of Nimrod” is considered? I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that perhaps you don’t and just found it clever or something… Look it up and see that those in this Christian doctrine of end times eschatology believe that Nimrod will return as the Antichrist, so calling one a “child of Nimrod” is like saying that I am a “child of the Antichrist” and we know that Scripture is clear that those that follow the antichrist are unforgiven, unredeemable and damned to hell. So your choice to pick out this one thing that this person said and put a “smile” (or some use ^^ as “2 thumbs up” in agreement) next to it was particularly “mocky” feeling after everything we went through before…. Not to mention that this person said that a demon inside of me controls my mind, thoughts and actions, so if you agree with them, this is extra disparaging. (I know you didn’t say that you did agree with that portion, but it was difficult to understand why you felt the need to comment about this in the way that you did, and doesn’t seem to be in any way to “keep the peace.”) So this most recent comment reinforced my perception that you think I may be unforgivable. Again, I took this especially personal coming from you specifically, as I did value your friendship and wished that there had been no division because of this one topical disagreement. But I will say over all that I still know that you mean well and have even stood up for you to others when they were offended by you. I deeply and genuinely apologize that things turned out the way they did and I’m so sad and sorry that this topic is too much of a problem for you to remain friends, or I guess in your admitted perception, become friends? :/ Despite this, my door is always open if you ever feel differently, need prayer, support, guidance, etc. Either way, I continue to pray for you and I continue to care for you.

      Just to make things clear about what you said:
      “My “warning” also had nothing to do with you studying Biblical Scriptures in their original language…” So 2 things. The alternative perspective on homosexuality in the Bible is completely derived from studying Scripture in original language and context. Yes there is more than one way to look at it. There’s the traditional way and the alternative way, and both are supported by Scripture based on going by a different definition of the same words or reading it in that context. So the reason I had said I felt you were criticizing me for studying the Bible in its original language is because your initial arguments were against these alternate translations from the original language. But second, in re-reading some past comments by you, I was reminded that you really never acknowledged that there is an alternate perspective and even said that you paid little attention to my comments any time I attempted to explain and give you the Biblical evidence. As a reminder if I haven’t said it before, I didn’t come up with all of this, and there are some first century Jewish and Christian sources that also wrote commentaries that saw these verses against shrine prostitution in their context. So I didn’t just make it up, as it can be studied. But anyhow, I now realize that since you never acknowledged there to even be another view, than I guess it’s right to say that in your own mind you weren’t condemning me for searching the Scriptures in the original language since you don’t think that’s what I’ve done apparently. So I apologize. At the same time, this is where this alternate perspective is derived, so… This is why I figured you were against me publishing my Biblical expositions on the topic.

      As for any victimization, I’ve received plenty of that both on here and in my life due to this topic, so that is not exaggerated by any means… But regarding you and your comments specifically, I can now see clearly that the accusations were heightened in my perception, so again I’m sorry.

      I hope this cleared up a few things…

      Lastly, when I said earlier that “it wasn’t just you,” let me explain what I came to realize. Satan is our accuser and loves to make us feel that we are not good enough to ever be saved. Truthfully, none of us are, as we know that it is only by the work of Jesus at the cross that we are washed, sanctified and justified and given salvation through grace by faith, which none of us deserve. Satan had a hold on me for years making me feel condemned for being gay. I felt I was beyond God’s salvation because of everything I had been taught by the church regarding homosexuality. Once I FINALLY found peace in Christ and knew that His grace was and is sufficient, I no longer feared being cast away and was able to feel God’s Mighty perfect presence. Doing these Bible studies brought me closer to Him than ever before and this can’t be denied. So in His perfect love that casts out fear, Satan found the one thing that freaked me out more than anything, which is being separated and unforgiven by God. I fully believe that the Enemy took this as an opportunity to attack my mind and play upon my fear, as committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would certainly cause what I feared most. I was weak and overtaken by this fear and it most definitely blurred my perception in regards to your words to magnify them as all accusatory. Thankfully I have been able to recover from this massive attack from the Enemy, but I am having to be on guard that much more. I am broken and only restored through Christ and am protected with the full armor of God as my strength. Lord help us all.

      So where I stand now in all of this. I still know there really is an alternate perspective in the way to look at this topic Scripturally, but for “all bases covered” sake, I ask The Lord to forgive me if it is sin. I can only be safe in His redemption, this is sure. So by His grace and love for me, I may be a sinner (as we all are), but I am redeemed by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ only! Amen! Thanks again for your comment. All the best to you!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

      • Christian57 says:

        Hello, Moanti.

        I pray you will experience a better time soon, healing for your cat and my condolences for your friend…

        I quickly (yeah, probably it will be long, at least I try! ^^) adress our points of disagreement…

        “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (II Peter 1:20-21).

        This revealed Truth (for believers) implies that private spins, personal understandings on the Bible to claim that God didn’t really mean what He said isn’t acceptable evidence.

        As there is exclusively (for believers…) ONE TRUE God, ONE Lord, and ONE Holy Spirit, so there is only ONE TRUtH, ONE DOCTRINE revealed through ONE book recording Biblical Scriptures, not two, not three, not 50.

        This is constituting the UNCHANGING objective reality for Christians, unlike personal, subjective opinions changing with the “zeitgeist”, the “wind” of time, culture…

        “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.” (Romans 10:17)

        In today’s age of global information, a person genuinely interested in learning of Biblical Scriptures Revelation has all it takes at their disposition to study them at their leisure. With minor knowledge how to browse an internet page, given most practical, handy tools such as the website “Bible Hub” offers freely for any and all to examine parallels of multiple, old and new editions of the Bible, contextual cross-references, commentaries from seasoned, respectable and respected Scholars and the wide range of translations available in no less than about 50 different languages for every Bible term and verse, given all this, confusion on Scriptures meaning is not possible, otherwise it is willful, wishful ignorance…

        “You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.” (Deuteronomy 4:2)

        “Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.” (Proverbs 30:6)

        As this is definitely my last post dealing with this subject matter, I want to share one two-parts article “answering Revisionist Pro-Gay Theology”, responding to Matthew Vines the leading figure of this movement, and by consequence to your similar claims :

        A Reformation the Church Doesn’t Need — Part I

        https://bible.org/article/reformation-church-doesn-t-need-answering-revisionist-pro-gay-theology-part-i

        A Reformation the Church Doesn’t Need — Part II

        https://bible.org/article/reformation-church-doesn-t-need-answering-revisionist-pro-gay-theology-part-ii

        Point …

        “So here is our question. In this discussion about homosexuality and the Bible, who in our midst is teaching Christians to practice lawlessness, those encouraging sexual restraint or those championing homosexual indulgence?”

        Important note :

        7 “But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband,” 1 Cor. 7:2. Note here that Paul identifies a single provision for avoiding sexual immorality—heterosexual marriage.

        At stake by your and his party claims, and why I diligently warn of the “unforgivable sin” reality in this context of actively pursuing, lobbying, activism seeking to legitimize homosexual behavior within Christianity, I quote without sourcing to avoid unnecessary links, but if you (or readers) are curious you can google phrases I cited and easily find these articles…

        “Matthew Vines’s “God and the Gay Christian.” – Here are the stakes of this book: If Vines is right, the Christian Church must repudiate its long-held teaching. But if Vines is wrong, he isn’t just leading people down the path of error; he’s leading people down the path to hell by denying that homosexual sin needs to be repented of.”

        “This points to the greater issue at stake here — the Gospel. Matthew Vines’s argument does not merely relativize the Bible’s authority, it leaves us without any authoritative revelation of what sin is. And without an authoritative (and clearly understandable) revelation of human sin, we cannot know why we need a Savior, or why Christ died. Furthermore, to tell someone that what the Bible reveals as sin is not sin, we tell them that they do not need Christ for that. Is that not exactly what Paul was determined not to do when he wrote to the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11? Could the stakes be any higher than that? This controversy is not merely about sex, it is about salvation.”

        IT seems a matter of disagreement on individual freedom on the temporal level, and yet this threat to the Church, the body of believers, followers of Jesus and the Christian doctrine is THAT serious in term of eternal implications for the whole humankind!!!

        To set legitimate boundaries and actually put an end to this argument and heated debate once and for all, again I am calling, referring to the LORD HIMSELF to be the Righteous Judge, by His own words and statements…

        As far as Biblical Marriage, lawful union for God’s people goes…

        I quote from another Christian author…

        “For example, with the culturally tricky issue of same-sex marriage.

        I’d received a note from a dad whose daughter was in a competition where she knew she’d be asked her view on this issue—an obvious attempt to disqualify anyone who doesn’t toe the politically correct line on homosexuality. He wanted my opinion on the safest way to answer the question, “What do you think about same-sex marriage?” and still be faithful to Jesus.

        Since Jesus said we should be innocent, but shrewd, I worked out a response I think satisfies both requirements: “Since I am a follower of Christ, my view on marriage is the same as Jesus’ view, one He made clear in Matthew 19: One man, with one woman, becoming one flesh, for one lifetime. So, on the definition of marriage, I stand with Jesus.”

        You get the point. Disagree with the Christian on this and you disagree with Christ. That’s why this should be your first line of response when answering this query. Since Jesus still has credibility with most people, this puts the opposition in a bind.

        Here’s the general principle: Pit the challenger against Jesus whenever you can. ”

        And this is what I finally do, the positon I learn the hard way to adopt!

        One last, hopefully helpful article I selected to provide you clear, practical measure, where do you, and other “practicing homosexuals” reading this message anxious to know, where do one stand with God should they be, or become involved in same gender sexual relations…

        Practicing Homosexuals Can Go to Heaven?

        http://thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/40380

        Finished this part of my comment, dealing with Theology…

        The second and last issue, my comment :

        “A “child of Nimrod”! ^^”

        Moanti, you are taking personally what I have not adressed to you, but to another poster entirely. I usually say what I mean directly and clearly without making any mystery, and not mincing my words, you (should) know that by now about me….

        By the way, I had to cope and deal with our friend Gary hell bent on me over Erik’s blog some weeks ago, as we mentioned you and your blog in our comments, it is due for me to direct you to read them, should you have missed this unnecessary drama…

        https://erikbrewer.wordpress.com/2015/09/07/kim-davis-marriage-the-church-and-the-lost-world-are/#comment-6866

        I am not shy to have stated there and to restate this here, directly to you, you were a false teacher and a wolf in sheep’s clothing as far as your words were going the last time I checked your expressed “opinion”, conviction and public testament of faith, by that I mean should you continue your activism within the body of believers to support and promote same gender sexual behavior to be part of a valid Christian lifetyle…

        I am really, REALLY glad, Gary and I could finally solve our issues (well, his issues with me!) and I pray you and me will engage in that same way, to polite and respectful understanding of our set opposition without personal issues causing unintended pain in the way, I pray for this as much as I can, I do not want “drama” and ill feelings for either of us, I really hate to leave unattended business of troubling others in my walk in life… 😦

        I am a French man, this expression I found really strange and no offense, “funny”. I did not comment to underscore and support this comment statements against you, this is your wrong imagination and persecution complex at works, I am sorry to say, but I commented simply as a smile for myself, it is so unusual for me a French to find this written, A “child of Nimrod”! ^^

        Lastly….

        This next thing should bring ease to your heart, shedding a new light of perspective to my words :

        “The worst of all sins is blasphemy. To deny the goodness of God and slander His name. To do this, to call what is pure love “hate,” is to pervert and distort one’s own heart, for we are made in the image of God. If God chooses to express that image through making one homosexual, to slander homosexuality is to slander God and become a blasphemer. So you may think that I have the burden of proof on me, but you would be equally as guilty of blasphemy if it turns out you are wrong in your condemnation! So don’t be so quick to be right.”

        https://moanti.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/gaychristians/#comment-8007

        John R comment adressed to me….

        The difference, I warn for others ETERNAL SAKE about the reality of this sin, the actual danger of eventually rejecting the offered Redemption, the call to leave our sins behind, holding on Jesus-Christ helpful, saving hand on Scriptures actual statements, given my thoroughly explained past comments, I did so to call borderline attitudes back home with God to urgent sobering, not threaten people here based on my personal opinion in order to enforce my “point” against others, as he did…

        Alright…

        I pray all this will sort out the ill feelings you maye have experienced, endured and held because of me and I sincerely apologize for this, I am sorry my care is not misplaced but poorly expressing, I know that… 😦

        Please take best care, Moanti, I wish you well with GOD, following the LORD Jesus-Christ!!!

        I hope this message will work as I intend it as I write, to finish clearing every remaining “personal” problems between us, sincerely… I do not plan to follow your blog anytime soon so won’t check to reply if you comment back, still I keep in mind this “New World Order” movie to discuss someday later with you on a positive and relaxed note, mood hopefuly, thankfully… Again I confirm you this, for sure! 🙂

        Farewell for now,
        Xavier

      • Hello Xavier,
        I apologize for my lengthy delay, although you said you wouldn’t read my reply. If you happen to change your mind, I just wanted to thank you for trying to clear things up. I only have one thing that I feel it imperative that you understand so we are able to move forward amicably. This is in regards to your continued labeling of me as a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” and “false teacher.” That’s fine that you disagree with my research. I really don’t have any desire left in me to convince you otherwise. I just really need you to understand HOW I research so that you no longer think I am guided by wishful thinking or ignorance, or worse, some evil force to go against God. So note that the following is NOT a theological argument by any means, but a presentation of how to better understand the original intention of the words in Scripture for any and all believers who wish to do so. Also note that I did get your last message and on your request, I did delete several paragraphs that might be loosely considered a “theological argument,” although they directly related to what you posted in your comment that were against me, but I will just let it be. Instead, I will focus on something that can benefit all laymen readers of the Bible.

        You said:
        “In today’s age of global information, a person genuinely interested in learning of Biblical Scriptures Revelation has all it takes at their disposition to study them at their leisure. With minor knowledge how to browse an internet page, given most practical, handy tools such as the website “Bible Hub” offers freely for any and all to examine parallels of multiple, old and new editions of the Bible, contextual cross-references, commentaries from seasoned, respectable and respected Scholars and the wide range of translations available in no less than about 50 different languages for every Bible term and verse, given all this, confusion on Scriptures meaning is not possible, otherwise it is willful, wishful ignorance…”

        I absolutely agree with your statement, but found this ironic since Biblehub is my main primary online source for the studies I have conducted for my website (as well as many print sources), namely the Biblehub Interlinear Bible. 😀 So to add to this plethora of available knowledge at our fingertips, let me show you how reading the multiple translations and/or Interlinear itself is still inadequate unless you dig a little deeper, which I have done and you, or anyone, can do yourself.

        Here’s one way that one can further their knowledge in Biblical meaning:
        A reading of the online Interlinear Bible on Biblehub will show the Strong number at the top, then the transliteration, then the original word (in Greek or Hebrew), then the English translation of the word underneath for each word, then the grammatical part of speech. Here is an example:

        3844 [e]
        para
        παρὰ
        contrary to
        Prep

        One is given the option to click on the Strong number which will provide the definition and all occurrences of the word in its various forms, or one can simply click the Hebrew or Greek word for its unique occurrences (since the Strong’s sometimes represents a combination of similar words based on common root words.) I have no clue how the French Bible is translated and if it’s Interlinear form does this, as perhaps there is less ambiguity… But when it comes to the English Interlinear, if one simply relies on the English translation of the word shown beneath the text, this is not only inadequate, but entirely false wording in some cases. Please note that I am not condemning the Bible whatsoever, but it’s translators have taken the liberty to change wording from its original or intended meaning, in some cases very dramatically. I can see how sometimes this might be unintentional due to dual word meanings in one language but not another. Here is just ONE example of only one Greek word in Romans 1:26, from the familiar phrase “contrary to nature.” The word pará (παρὰ) is translated in every English Bible I’ve ever come across as “contrary to (nature),” “against (nature),” or “un(natural).” The Interlinear Bible states it as “contrary to,” but then when you click on the Strong’s definition of pará, here is the actual definition:

        “3844 (pará) an emphatic “from,” means “from close beside” (“alongside”). It stresses nearness (closeness) which is often not conveyed in translation. 3844 (pará) is typically theologically significant, even when used as a prefix (i.e. in composition). 3844 (pará) usually adds the overtone, “from close beside” (implying intimate participation) and can be followed by the genitive, dative, or accusative case – each one conveying a distinct nuance.”
        Here is the verse:
        http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/1-26.htm
        Here is the word:
        http://biblehub.com/greek/3844.htm

        So when we think of something being against or contrary to nature or unnatural, it would most certainly convey that it is opposite of nature or in resistance of nature or in rebellion of nature. Yet the word actually means “from nature” or “close to,” or “from close beside.” There is no dual meaning in Greek for this word to mean “contrary” or “opposition.” So this gives it a whole different meaning. Does it not?

        So here’s where I think this example might have been unintentional, yet the length of time that this mistranslation has remained is inexcusable in my opinion. The English word “against” can mean “in close proximity” or “beside something,” but can also mean “contrary to” or “in opposition to.” It seems that hundreds of years of translation has allowed for the meaning to be “contrary,” yet the true meaning is actually closer to the former, as “from close beside.” Remember that the Greek word pará does not have any double meaning for this word. It only means “from close beside” or in other words, being in close proximity. But no layman would know this just by reading it in English. So I would really like to know what French word is used for para, and if it also has the same double meaning as in English? Okay, never mind the request. I just went ahead and pulled up a French Bible and it said: “contre nature.” I am assuming contre is equivalent to contrary, right? Well from what I see contre also means “from” or “from close beside” as well as “in opposition.” But I’m assuming all French Bible readers never think “from” or “from close beside,” but rather “in opposition.” Is that true? Please correct me if I’m wrong. Now this brings up an interesting point of double meanings. The Greek word pará does NOT have this same double meaning and ONLY means “from” or “from close beside.” But our word usage in English and French have wrongfully given it whole new meaning! Now this is totally forgivable as a mistake because of the dual meaning issue, but then when we look to other languages in which Bibles were translated later, it gives this wrong meaning in an even more drastic way with no possibility to think otherwise. One example is the phrase “against nature” translated into the Japanese Bible in Romans 1:26. It is “同性愛にふけるようになり” which means “who now indulge in homosexuality.” If you think this translation mishap is a rare occurrence, try reading the Interlinear Bible for yourself and click on the words and you will find many occurrences where the definition does not fit the translation.

        So why am I telling you this? I’m not trying to prove this verse as supporting homosexuality. No. That single word is just one small piece of a much bigger puzzle within that one verse. I am telling you this so that you can understand that I am not changing the words of Scripture, but trying to genuinely uncover the actual meaning of Scripture from the words of its original language. Unless everything I’ve come across from the original language is completely made up, than I can’t see how reading the Bible in this way is a sin or a false teaching. After all, there is only One Book and the original language is the very best source. Is it not?

        In regard to my Bible studies, as I recently stated, this is not my own “private interpretation,” as there are Bible commentators even in the first century who have shown the connection to the things that I speak about here, and some can even be found in popular translations in the tiny footnotes below the verses. More importantly, the interpretation that I present is based on the actual definition of words and I have cross referenced all of their occurrences in all of Scripture so that they are not only contextually accurate, but attempt to let the Bible define the Bible. So instead of “guessed definitions,” or submitting to erroneous double meanings that don’t cross the language divide, they are my very best attempt at their accurate Biblical definition. So to call this “false teaching” by simply unveiling what has been found in the original language is not a fair accusation. You are free to disagree with my conclusions, sure, but please don’t condemn my studies as ignorant or wishful thinking, as they are true to the best attempt at their original presentation given the available resources.

        Regardless, I agree 100% that there is ONE TRUE God, ONE Lord, and ONE Holy Spirit and ONE TRUTH revealed through ONE BOOK… But sadly, there are many more than just one interpretation expressed through many varied translations, some better or poorer than others. But when it comes to doctrinal issues, this is quite varied between Christian denominations. So I would not say that there is just “one doctrine” represented throughout Christianity. I would hope to say that most have it right in regards to the main message of salvation. But their differences in certain beliefs and traditions remain debatable between each other. There is only one body of believers, but with one body comes many parts, and with many parts comes differing functions. As long as Christ is at the head, then Christ controls the body. Salvation is only through One.

        Again I stress the importance of personal conviction when it comes to questioned issues. There can be varied conviction between two genuine believers. Romans 14 makes this very clear. Remember that it was Paul’s personal conviction to be unmarried and wished that all could be single, but he had the discernment to know that this was a personal conviction for him to fulfill the will of God in his own life, not a command for any and every believer. So if a differing branch among the Christian body doesn’t fit your exact doctrinal interpretation due to a difference of personal conviction, this doesn’t mean that they are all following satan and worshiping a false god. If we are led by the Holy Spirit, than we should not accuse another believer of following satan. This is a dangerous claim to make, especially if the one you are accusing is led by the Holy Spirit. Some are called to help a particular group and others are called to help others in yet a smaller group within that group. Perhaps you are led to help homosexuals that are called to celibacy. As for me, I recognize that not all have this spiritual gift, but for those that do, I accept it, as I would never want any to go against their conviction.

        I appreciate your comment and also that you are still willing to one day watch the documentary about the New World Order Bible Versions. I do not agree with everything in that documentary by the way (especially some of the beliefs of the pastors that are anti-Semitic and the claim that other Bible versions are an evil conspiracy), but I do think it gives a fascinating look into the history of the Bible and translation changes. I’m assuming you read what was said to the last commenter, so I will stop here in regards to this.

        Anyway, on a personal note if you do read this, I need some major prayer. I found out some bad health news about myself on the same day that I learned that my 5 year old godson might have a brain tumor or bleeding in his brain. Please especially pray for him, as he is just a sweet little boy that I love as my own and really needs God’s healing hand upon him. Thanks Xavier.
        Your sister in Christ (whether you think so or not),
        Moanti
        P.S. In regards to any personal issue between us, I have already told you that I see it wasn’t as drastic of an accusation as I had felt at the time. I can see the separation of what was directed at me and what was not. I truly was under a spiritual attack at the time and it was horrible and difficult, but I’m okay. Now I see it was a test for what I will have to endure in my present undertakings, which I won’t get into here with you. Just know that I feel better now and understand. God allowed it to happen as a test and I am still here, so that’s good! My only issue now is clearing up to you about how I conduct my studies so you realize that I am genuinely trying to seek out original meaning, not loose interpretation. You should know by now from what you know of me that I’m not trying to justify the Bible just to have gay sex. I just happen to personally relate to this issue and it seems that many in the heterosexual camp don’t have the will, the drive or the calling to consider any possible alternatives from what is commonly translated. But anyway, I wish you only the best and you remain in my prayers.

      • Christian57 says:

        Hello,

        Alright, I find your comment only now, it was up in the page, sorry I am using a tablet.

        I do not resort to “accusations” of you being a “false teacher”, I boldly state that you were and will be one false teacher, should you continue on promoting the endorsement of sin, any one sin. God alone defined sin, among which sexual relations outside of commited heterosexual union are always sin, period.

        I read you could understand me better, I am glade, your personal issues with me are one their way to be solved, thank you!!! I do not hold any grudges against you, either!!

        I pray and continue to pray for every one I come to know, even for complete strangers and our Humankind as a whole, I pray for good and right evolution with God as I like to say it…

        Double my prayers for you regularly, and for your grand-son well-being currently, Moanti!

        Take best care, okay…
        Farewell,
        Xavier.

      • Xavier,
        I’m not sure what I said in my last message that upset you, but I’m truly sorry. I have answered your question in my last 2 comments, and in the last one it was in the “p.s.” Yes we are fine Xavier… I simply expressed the difficulty of the situation in my first comment, but acknowledged that things were now understood between us, okay? I have never compared you to a racist, slave-master or anti-Semite. My usage of the word “anti-semitism” in my last comment had to do with the pastor in the movie (New World Order Bible Versions) you said you would watch sometime. I just wanted you to know that I don’t agree with his stance on that at all. It was in no comparison to you. Perhaps there’s some confusion on both sides here… Unless you’re referring to someone else, or multiple others, since you keep using the phrase “you people.” John R was talking about how Christians used to use the Bible to endorse slavery in the past and believe that their view on it was pure 100% uncompromising Biblical truth. He wasn’t saying you are like a racist slave trader by any means… Only that people have different views that are strong and varied and can change with the culture. In fact, he affirmed your view as personally important and that you should follow what you believe, as well as brought up the basis behind Romans 14, as I agree. There are going to be disagreements between honest believers and God acknowledges them both when they genuinely seek to please Him through whatever their personal conviction is on the topic. The biggest importance between ALL believers is being saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. Anyhow, I’m sorry that you seem upset now, as this was never ever my intention, but in fact the opposite!

        The one thing I still am a bit perplexed about is how you are mentally separating my studies of the Bible regarding homosexuality and your accusation of what you see me doing as “promoting sin.” You seem to think that they are related to 2 different things, but the source of all of my information that you would consider “promoting sin” is all based on my published Bible research. So they go hand in hand, hence the understandable assumption that you’re attacking or against my Bible research. So whether you acknowledge this to be legitimate or not, my Bible studies on this do absolutely relate to everything that you are arguing against on here. If I had no Biblical research to support my stance, than I would understand how their would be no relation. But this is where it’s ALL based from, so that’s why I’m not the only one on here that seems to think that you are criticizing this. Any links that you provide and support that show a contrary stance also appear to be an attempt on your part to debate the research (although they rarely actually directly give a solid explanation for the parts that are provable mistranslations, but rather just repeat the basic traditional translation to uphold their stance, but note I haven’t had a chance to look at your most recent links, but will shortly.) So most of what you have said in comments here would be perceived by me (and others) to be an opposition to my Bible research. That’s not a faulty perception based on some irrational victim mind state, but just makes logical sense, hence others here thinking that you’re doing the same thing. Does that make sense? But regardless of this, it’s totally fine and okay and not a problem whatsoever that you do have another view! Your view is very well supported by the common translation and I don’t discourage you from promoting it. So it’s fine. I just wanted you to see how it is conveyed and you can’t really “throw out” that you’re against what I’ve published about what is found in the original language. Remember also that in the beginning you told me I should delete my entire website. So I’ve gotten this impression from you for a very long time.

        Okay, now I’ve got your other recent comment and I guess you hadn’t even seen my last one. I’m glad you got it and understand! I do apologize for the long wait. There’s been many serious personal things going on that’s prevented me from responding sooner and I’m sorry. Thanks for your prayers for my godson, (not grandson. I’m not old enough to be a grandma just yet, unless I had a child as a young teen who then had a baby as a young teen. Thankfully not! Haha! Remember I don’t have kids, just cats. 😉 ) So thanks for your prayers for him and please also pray for me. I got some alarming health news myself. I should be okay, but it sounds scary, so just pray it doesn’t progress into anything worse. So I hope you can forgive my delay. This is not to mention all the other things going on in the professional front which have been especially time consuming and stressful lately so I’ve gotten quite behind on my replies. So thanks for your patience!

        Anyway, you do keep bringing up recently that I am against Christ because of the marriage quote, so I think it’s only fair for me to address just this. I already deleted things for you in the last post, but because you bring this up at least twice in recent comments, I must explain. As far as Biblical marriage, I’ve never said that I disagree with Jesus’ statement. I’ve made it quite clear that any bonding between the same gender would be following the BLUEPRINT for Bibical marriage as a God-centered life-long monogamous covenant. This denotes that Christian same-gender unions are following a template or model of Biblical heterosexual marriage. This is in the attempt to be pleasing to God considering our differing minority circumstances (born without ability for opposite gender marital love) rather than misuse sex for deviant purposes. This would be contrary to following instead that which is sharply and unequivocally condemned such as sexual immorality in the forms of promiscuity, lustful empty sex, whoredome, etc. It is clear that Biblical marriage is defined between a man and woman, but before that, it was one man and many women, and before that it was incestuous (including our beloved ancestor Abraham married to his half sister Sarah, and that marriage was completely blessed by God which was later seen as an abomination for others, but not them.) The definition of marriage has admittedly changed throughout the thousands of years of Biblical history by God’s design for humanity itself, and it is obvious that the changing population numbers were the driving motivation for the changing laws. Jesus made this statement as an answer to a question regarding divorce. The question was if a man could divorce his wife for any and every reason. Not “is it okay to get married to the same gender?” Jesus did not say ONLY one man and one woman can be married. Rather He brings up the original intention from the beginning, that they stay together and not separate. Yes the words “male” and “female” are used and very important, as how else would 2 become 1 flesh (i.e. 2 people producing a child)? But to use this phrase as the answer to a different question is unfair to then assume that anyone who has differing circumstances (in this case, one who has no opposite gender attraction), but has a heart towards wanting a marriage, is then therefore “against Christ.”

        But it doesn’t really stop there with Jesus’ statement. After He spoke to the Pharisees regarding marriage, he went on to say in Matthew 19:11,12, “Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs (eunouchoi) who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs (eunouchisthesan) who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs (eunouchisan) who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.” So Jesus acknowledges that not all can accept this statement regarding heterosexual marriage, but only to those to whom it has been given… He didn’t go on to condemn those that couldn’t accept it. He didn’t say, “if you can’t accept this, you’re against me.” Instead he went on to describe 3 separate types of eunuchs, all with 3 separate original names, with the first with particularly fascinating implications. The eunouchoi that were born that way from their mothers womb can not be speaking about singleness or celibacy because all are born single. It cannot be talking about castration, because no one is castrated in the womb. It also cannot be referring to infertility, because this is not something that would be opposite of heterosexual marriage in order to know if you were fertile (considering that there were no fertility tests back then, one would have to marry to find out, thus making the statement “not all can accept this” null and void.) In Ancient Roman Law they recognized 2 types of eunuchs, “natural and whole” (with all their parts), and “mutilated” (castrated.) The castrated ones could fall into the last two mentioned by Jesus, but the first would be considered “natural and whole” and in Roman documents were described as “not unable, but unwilling to have sexual relations with women.” (reference to the historical text of Clement of Alexandria.) Yet in Roman law, natural and whole eunuchs were allowed to marry, unlike their mutilated counterparts. (Lex Julia et Papia, book 1, digest 50.16.128) This is not to say that Roman documents trump Scripture by any means, but give additional historical validation of just who these eunouchoi were and is likely the strongest case for mention and affirmation of sexual orientation in the Bible. Jesus ends by saying in verse 12, “He who is able to receive this, let him accept it.”

        So in the beginning he made them male and female and the two become one flesh; i.e. the two produce one flesh as a new child. I can’t help but make a mental parallel about the description of Jesus Himself according to the Gospel of John. It states, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning…The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.” (John 1:1,14). Knowing that the perfect Divine Messiah was born of a virgin woman by the miracle of Yahweh, the Word itself became flesh. So rather than two becoming one flesh, the Word of Yahweh became flesh so that through Him, we could become children of God, “children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.” (John 1:13.) With this said, it shows the intention of the Messiah and what He would accomplish for all future generations. As children of God, we are heirs of the covenant, which promises salvation in our faith through the grace of His blood shed for us. This perfect new covenant as a promise is not broken when we commit to Him. He has committed to us more than we could ever repay. It is through our commitment to Him in our faith that we remain in Him. Likewise, when a married couple remains committed, they are reflecting the most important thing that ensures sustainability of their ongoing union to the marriage covenant. this reminds me of “But the one who endures to the end will be saved.” (Matthew 24:13). In a reflective sense, being unfaithful and committing adultery against one’s spouse would be like a Christian choosing instead to serve another god, committing idolatry and breaking the commitment of faith, in turn divorcing themselves from the covenant promise. This is why the marriage commitment is so very important and divorce is the topic of the sin discussed. So although man and woman marriage is obviously highlighted, lest we not forget that Jesus acknowledges that not all were called to it, even some born that way from their mothers wombs that cannot accept it personally for themselves because it wasn’t given to them to be that way. So when Paul says that to avoid sexual immorality, each man should have a wife and vice versa, this does not “fix the problem” for gays and lesbians. So with the intention of modeling the committed martial bond supported in Scripture, some Christian gays and lesbians feel called to model this, as it’s the closest thing to obedience that they know. It’s not the same in regards to physical bodies, no. But in regard to the heart, the intentions are the same. Just as The Lord said to Samuel, “For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.” (1 Samuel 16:7)

        Okay, I must go. Thanks again. I appreciate you and you’re in my prayers.
        Your sister in Christ,
        Moanti

      • Christian57 says:

        Hello, Moanti,

        I was referring to Gary’s behavior towards me on Erik’s blog a few weeks ago on the “equating” part, as well as to this same defamation of my person “just because of” my Christian identity, because I am obeying God’s command to hate the evil people do, my human dignity and person violently (verbally) bashed by “pro-gay” individuals being the reason for my first coming to Erik’s blog on this topic, and later to yours last year, if you remember correctly…

        There is nothing new under the sun…

        By “you people”, I was, am referring only to you and John R, as I have adressed my cautions to both of you, for you two similar wrong of “gay activism” within the Church…

        I quote :

        “Who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them” (Romans 1:32). Thus we learn that both those who commit sin and those who give approval to the committing of sin are both condemned in the eyes of God.

        A “teacher” of the Word teaches by example first and foremost, their words hold weight only through matching their actions, I am not separating but considering the whole, thus avoiding partiality, error…

        “Had you asked me to agree or disagree to this: “the homosexual act, the behavior of indulging in homosexual intimacy is permissible between two Christian believers in the confines of a Christ-centered life-long monogamous covenant,” I would have said “yes,” I agree. ”

        I spare you my comment on your statement and chosen lifestyle’s validity, correspondance with God’s Word and Will for His children…

        https://moanti.wordpress.com/2012/08/25/biological-evidence-that-proves-gay-and-lesbian-sex-is-not-unnatural/#comment-8380

        I can not give you any scheduled time for my planned watching of the “New World Order” documentary, to a probably last, thankfully non-controversial contribution to your blog, but I am interested on the subject as I really liked to learn from the Professior Tertius, the New King James and New American / English standard editions of the Bible to be reliable, trust-worhty and definitely better editions of the great-but-outdated 1600 KJV edition!

        What is the professor recommandation for current French editions of the Bible? I may ask him directly on his website, I personally like Louis Segond…

        Alright… I thank you for your prayers as well, very much and assure you of mine…
        You; take care, please… Good bye.

        Xavier

      • Christian57 says:

        Moanti, I have wake early today to write this for you, as you seem to purposedly hold on to your misundersanding of my messages, are somehow still arguing, so read me, short and clear…

        You know I have adressed the same, the SIMILAR words of “warning” to John R, one another person than you are. If you do not believe I did, please read my last few messages linking quotations of my own past comments, I will include one link to there in this message, anyway…

        So, let’s examine together the FACTS as they REALLY stand, one careful last time…

        – Contrary to you, John R is NOT publicly identifying as a “homosexual”.

        This fact demonstrates your and his DIFFERENT “sexual orientation” and / or “sexual identity”, or even “sexual behavior / conduct” are NOT at cause for my SIMILAR assessment, caution.

        This unarguably prove I have not been treating you (or him) unfairly “just because of”.

        – Contrary to you, John R is NOT publicly holding a “blog”, he do not publish and share his own “Bible studies” through regular and detailed articles online.

        This fact demonstrates your and his DIFFERENT situation, the existence of your blog and the endeavor of conducting / sharing, / publishing one’s own “Bible studies” are NOT at cause for my SIMILAR assessment, caution.

        Even though his comments on your blog somehow constitute a “publication of his own Bible studies”, I am positive my “warning” for him came as soon as his second comment to me, fairly disproving this fairly legitimate assumption of yours, on my actual intention…

        https://moanti.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/gaychristians/#comment-7979

        This unarguably prove I have not been treating you (or him) unfairly, I am not attempting to silence, or to censor your / his freedom of speech.

        So… What then is left in common, that is SIMILAR between you and him, the true cause of my words of warning in relation to this, something so dangerous to carry on, it may well be leading to committing the “unpardonable sin” oneself, and risking other people entrusting you instead of Scripture to follow by example, namely to unrepentingly prefere one’s own way to God’s way, rejecting the offered Salvation available to all of us sinners, in Jesus-Christ..?

        My “warning” to John R from the link above…

        “Anyway, my “stance” is that of the conservative Christianity, so what new can I say….

        I know the Biblical truth on the matter of “homosexuality”, according to Scriptures writings and historical, traditional understanding and teachings on this. this practice is a sexual sin among other ones, nothing less, nothing more.

        Homosexual sex is a sin, homophobia in unjustly mistreating this modern, social group called “homosexuals” is as sin, and attempting to legitimate homosexuality within Christiantiy is also a sin, the worst of the three as far as I am concerned…

        I pray for you to not engage in any of them… The third in particular, I am grieved you are on your way there, as it may well be the unforgivable sin, to call the good of God’s laws evil, attempting to change them for selfish gain, or misplaced “compassion” for your “gay friends” you seem to prioritize over the Truth of God, their well being with GOD….”

        My SIMILAR “warning” to you, a few posts below…

        https://moanti.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/gaychristians/#comment-7993

        “Moanti,

        You and me are friends all right, but our exchange on the question of the acceptability of same-sex sexual behavior within Christianity has reached a dead end.

        My last call to reason you back to our common doctrine as a fellow believer, it is either you submit to God’s word and will (the whole Bible is the written Word, Jesus is the living Word) revealing the homosexual behavior is one sexual immoral sin no greater or no worse than any other throughout Scriptures writings and teachings, or you are not a “real”, not a Bible believing and abiding Christian as far as I am concerned about you.

        You are free to decide…

        As far as your words are expressing your conviction, you chose apostasy.

        I am warning you friendly, for the very last time…. Period.”

        There… Nothing related to your specific “homosexual orientation”, nothing adressing your “conducting / publishing of Bible studies”, or you tell me…

        I equate this “gay affirming” position, seeking to establish righteousness for “not this kind” of homosexuality within Christianity, I equate this with willful, chosen apostasy, open rebellion against God according to the Bible, quite simply, and righly so, reasonably or you tell me using Scripture ALONE, NOT using a single word of your private interpretation “derived from” the Bible…

        Where is the passage that gives approval to homosexual acts in any form?

        For, as far as FACTS go…

        “– 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior describe it as sin in the clearest and strongest possible terms.

        – 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions of any kind. There are no exceptions for “committed” relationships.

        This settled it for me, I pray it will, for you…

        Feel free to ask me any question if you STILL misunderstand my clear and fair “stance”, my CARING words of caution, but please be quick to ask me if you need to, Moanti, I am sick and tired of / with this incident crawling for too long and want it sorted out, finished, case closed, done and over with, on a positive note, hopefully…

        PS : On a side note, my comment about “Nimrod”, should you also doubt of my good adn right intention, please notice this comment is posted right below on from me, and the first “reply” option scrolling the page up from this comment is leading to another of my comment… The first time I found and read it, I took it for something written and adressed to me for the above reasons, facts, and thus I allowed myself to comment humorously as I did, this wording was so unusual… No offense intended!

        Farewell,
        Xavier.

      • Xavier,
        There’s no misunderstanding. I understand where you’re coming from loud and clear. I’m not confused on your accusation and haven’t been for quite some time now. I just feel that the third category you listed as “legitimizing homosexuality within Christianity” is personally for me 100% related to the Bible research I present. I know you don’t say that, but that’s where it all comes from for me and is the driving force of any affirmation for Christian gays. I know John R doesn’t have a website with Bible studies and your accusation towards him as a straight male was different. Let’s please have the “case closed.” I love you as a brother in Christ and let’s just leave it at that and pray for one another. I also have to wake up early, so don’t take offense to this short message. I just wanted you not to have to wait around for a reply. Have a blessed day and please don’t worry yourself with this anymore. Everything is fine. We are fine. I already understood you and I don’t have any more questions. Okay? Thanks for caring. May God bless you in your walk of faith! *hugs*
        Your sister in Christ,
        Moanti

      • Christian57 says:

        Moanti,

        Thank you really much, I also do appreciate and consider you my friend in any event, you are in my prayers just as well, not just words!!

        Until next time, discussing this documentary someday,
        Take best care,
        Xavier

      • Thank you as well, my friend. 🙂 I appreciate your prayers and I just prayed for you in fact. I’m in bed now and it’s already 2:45am here and I have to be up for work… Farewell for now! 😉

      • Christian57 says:

        Not “accusation”, caring warning…

        Not different for him, similar for you both, impartialy.

        Case closed! 🙂

        Good night!!

      • Xavier, I request an appeal of this case! Haha, I’m totally kidding… I just wanted to say that I think I use the word “accusation” in more loose terms than it’s more serious meaning. I just meant the accusation that I might be close to committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in your opinion. It is more rather an injunction, or advisory statement, not an actual accusation. I rather should have just said “your warning.” Sorry! I will just try to avoid using that word from now on! Ha! Also, I was just noting that I understood the difference in that John R is a straight male and doesn’t have a website published about gay affirming studies as I do, yet you warned us of the same thing… I was only noting our differences so you know that I do not feel singled out. I know that you gave a “caring warning” to both of us equally, as in the same, and not different! I just wanted you to know that I actually do understand! So case closed, for real! 😉 *gavel noise*

      • Christian57 says:

        Fair enough!

        “It is more rather an injunction, or advisory statement, not an actual accusation.”

        Yes!! In the same way our beloved Biblical Prophets, LORD and Apostles caringly educate and caution us all, to aknowledge our sinful state and come to Him, to Jesus-Christ for Redemption, for Salvation… Amen.

        “Also, I was just noting that I understood the difference in that John R is a straight male and doesn’t have a website published about gay affirming studies as I do, yet you warned us of the same thing… I was only noting our differences so you know that I do not feel singled out. I know that you gave a “caring warning” to both of us equally, as in the same, and not different!”

        Spot on, Moanti!! 🙂

        I am glad we FINALLY came to the same page, on this horrible misundestanding…

        I pray for you and your godson, wish you the best with GOD, as for your family and relatives,

        Farewell for now,
        Xavier.

      • Xavier,
        Yay and hooray! This calls for a celebration! Haha! I will definitely keep you and your family in my prayers as well! And I’m not sure if you still have your Lucette, but I pray if you do, she stays healthy and safe and temperature controlled. :0) Thanks for your prayers as well!
        Until we meet again…
        Your sister in Christ,
        Moanti

      • Christian57 says:

        Yay!! Celebration!!!

        We will meet again for certain, I am interested in this documentary, but when….

        Thank you really much for your care, Lucette passed away the end of last year… My family now adopted another Hamster, her name is… Blanchette!!

        And…

        https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11880328_938992872824773_5901146236957798431_n.jpg?oh=ce900935e6953d918a47da6237077ae6&oe=56C987C6

        &

        Julia!!! (Ginger like the actress, Julia Roberts)

        Take best care,
        God save!

      • Awww, I’m so sorry to hear about Lucette, but glad you got a new hamster and by the way, Julia is ADORABLE!!!!! ❤ Thanks so much for sharing!!!! 😀 I also have a new cat since we last talked, but he is an adult male I found in the street and he looks like a little leopard cat. I love him soooo much and he makes me so joyous! He loves to cuddle and is very sweet and so he's my baby boy! I wish I could take him everywhere! Haha! I will have to show you some pictures sometime later too. 🙂

      • Christian57 says:

        My pleasure, Julia is very sweet, at (few) times a little bit “annoying” as she is young (5 months) and make hmm… Whims? To either go out or always have our company in… lol

        Firefox Julia!

        &

        Artless, so cute and innocent, pure here…

        https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/v/t1.0-9/11831709_929400663783994_5186830301779784251_n.jpg?oh=5953d7a0a067b2befaf841a25108fe10&oe=56C5E1B7

        Good bye, Moanti. Thank you again, until next time! 🙂

      • Xavier,
        She is just such a little beauty! I really appreciate you sharing her pictures! My kitty is also very vocal, and when I first got him, for the first few months any time I would have to leave to go anywhere, his meow sounded like he was saying “noooo!” And then he would grab onto my leg. Haha! He is still quite needy, but I love it because I feel needy of him too! I have to refrain myself from making an entire website all about him! Haha! Anyway, I look forward to our next encounter. Thanks again for everything! 🙂
        Farewell for now!

      • Christian57 says:

        You are welcome, why not create a section for our pet friends on your blog…? No joke! ^^

        I would like to know your leopard cat, how do you call him?

      • Christian57 says:

        He is AWESOME and lovely, seems very well cared for and healthy, the lucky lad! 😉

        Thank you greatly for sharing his pictures with me, too, you can now remove them for privacy reasons, such a nice cat.

        I will go to sleep now, have a nice day for now and again, thank you wholeheartedly for our most appreciated, and needed, reconciliation, Moanti…

        Best regards,
        Xavier.

      • Thank you Xavier! Until next time…

      • Awww! Thanks Xavier! :o) Happy Halloween to you!

  16. Christian57 says:

    Hello, excuse me is my comment still pending…? Thanks.

  17. j hutch says:

    Hi Moanti,
    I just wanted to tell you I came to this article from google, searching for an answer from Christians, as to why the prostate gives the man pleasure during homosexual acts, yet somehow God is against homosexual acts. This just doesnt compute with me as a gay married man, who always enjoys the physical union I share with my husband within our marriage. I read all of your comments on the forum below and I was just in awe of the eloquence and grace in the way you discribed the gift of salvation and the meaning of repentance. It was beautiful and it mirrored my experience with Christ and salvation. And I commend you, on keeping calm with that X character. I have had to remove people like him from my life completely, because they refuse to open their eyes to what scripture means and just keep repeating what they think it says. Its infuriating, to explain the evidence and context of the clobber passages to show that they actually refer to temple prostitution and pagan fertility rituals, only for them to tell me that context doesnt matter. So then I ask about 1Corinthians 11:5. It says that for women to pray with their head uncovered is dishonorable and shameful, yet not a single woman in America acknowledges that this is a sin. Why? Context. It was taking about something else, to a different group of people, in a different culture, the same as the clobber passages. Also they refuse to acknowledge these two points: 1Samuels proves that God approves of two men loving each other and that it can be better than a man and woman loving each other, and that Matthew 19 in Jesus’ own words, tells us that some men are exempt from heterosexual marriage.
    So in conclusion, i have an everlasting peace that I am saved by Jesus Christ, and the Bible does not condemn my same sex marriage 🙂 If i am somehow wrong, i hope that Jesus will forgive my error, but in the end, He is the only one with the authority over my eternal fate, one way or the other.

    • Dear J Hutch,
      Sorry for the delay in response! I just wanted to tell you that I really appreciate your comment and support! I know it can be discouraging when friends and family completely ignore the Biblical evidence and context or they disparage you for even suggesting that their could be an alternate way of looking at it! I am glad to know that you can feel the everlasting peace of knowing that you are saved through Jesus Christ! None of us, straight or gay, would have any chance without Him, so if you rely on His act on the cross, you will not be put to shame! Imperfect humans might scoff and slander you, but the important thing is holding to your faith in Him, as He is the ONLY one that saves! He knows your struggles and in his grace through them, His strength is made perfect! His love and grace is truly beyond our understanding…

      As far as the “X character” (as you called him), we have worked things out and can at least agree to disagree when it comes to Bible interpretation and just try to avoid any argument going forward. I can see that he really does mean well, despite our disagreements on this one topic. He just feels that I’m on spiritually dangerous ground and wants to help me out of it. So for him, it’s an act of love to warn me what I’m doing. Although many could outwardly see his motivation as hateful, I really don’t believe that it is hateful at all.

      What I’ve found through the years is that people are going to generally hold onto their own personal convictions (i.e. the heterosexual Christian will feel that homosexuality is wrong because they are personally convicted not to engage in it themselves since they are straight.) But at rare times, some are able to separate this from applying their personal conviction as the required standard for all Christians.

      I’ve also had people in my life that I’ve had to distance myself from due to this issue, or they have just stopped any further contact with me until I reject my “chosen lifestyle.” I understand that’s hard, especially when it’s a dear friend or family member. But most of my lost Christian friendships were long before I even knew there was a possible different view within Scripture, so they were simply rejecting me solely on the basis of my sexual orientation and even said things like “she’s obviously not really a Christian since she’s a lesbian. She really fooled us.” Even more ironic is that I totally believed it was a sin during this time and came to them for support because I didn’t know how to cope with it! So yeah, it’s hard.

      I think the biggest hurdle to them even vaguely considering that there might be another interpretation is because of Romans 1:32 that states, “Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” The approval aspect is a big deal because I think a lot of Christians worry that if they even have an appearance of remotely approving of anything gay, they are just as guilty. (This is of course when they solely see this passage as condemning gays and lesbians.) This may be a random comparison, but it reminds me of how Islam warns that it’s a huge (or possibly unforgiveable) sin to say that God has a son. So I know this makes many Muslims apprehensive of even considering Christianity. (Although thankfully, many still do.) So my point is that in both cases, many are worried to even consider a different view because they are scared they will be condemned by God.

      So anyway, thanks again for your comment! Please feel free to ask me any questions if you have any, or if you ever need any prayers guidance or support! My main page on my website that has the majority of my Bible studies on this topic is at http://www.gaychristians.2freedom.com May God continue to bless you and your husband in your walk of faith!
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

      • Christian57 says:

        Hello, I am sorry to interfere,

        “As far as the “X character” (as you called him), we have worked things out and can at least agree to disagree when it comes to Bible interpretation and just try to avoid any argument going forward. I can see that he really does mean well, despite our disagreements on this one topic. He just feels that I’m on spiritually dangerous ground and wants to help me out of it. So for him, it’s an act of love to warn me what I’m doing. Although many could outwardly see his motivation as hateful, I really don’t believe that it is hateful at all.”

        I am touched, thank you Moanti… 😥

        Farewell,
        X…..

  18. Moanti, I’ve spent a lifetime in Bible translation and related scholarship and the man ranting against modern Bible translations at http://youtu.be/kFtI_mVOXbQ is either very ignorant of the topics he’s addressing and/or he is blindly repeating the words of pathological liars. Truly, I don’t know which explains his contempt for those who, by and large, do their very best to convey the original texts of the scriptures as clearly and faithfully as they possibly can. It is interesting that he partly focuses on the JW’s New World Translation—which is NOT a Bible translation at all—in an attempt to taint legitimate translations.

    It is easy to convince uninformed Christians that the KJV is the “correct text” of the Bible and therefore any Bible which “leaves verses out” is evil. But the actual truth is that many verses GOT ADDED in the later Greek manuscripts, and because the KJV translators had very few texts (and those they had were quite poor), scholarly have gone to great effort to identify and isolate those later insertions (some of which began as simply marginal notes) in order to be as faithful to the Greek original as possible.

    If someone has solid reasons for insisting that particular verses ARE legitimate and should be preserved, fine. But to pretend that there is some conspiracy of evil to “delete scriptures” in a Satanic grand conspiracy, I would pray that we would all show more maturity and not slander indiscriminately.

    Moanti, if you want readers with strong theological training in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic to give your exegetical analysis of the Biblical texts a fair hearing, I must caution you that most will immediately assume from your favorable endorsement of http://youtu.be/kFtI_mVOXbQ that you are extremely ill-informed on matters of Bible translation and textual criticism.

    I certainly prefer some modern translations to others on the basis of both textual issues and translation issues. I also have tremendous respect for the fine word done by the KJV translators in 1611 despite their poverty of quality original language texts of the Bible and very few lexicographic and exegetical reference tools. But to pretend that their work was superior to that of new translations is so ridiculous and erroneous—-and it even fails to acknowledge God’s generosity in giving gifts to the Church in the form of skilled translators and scholars. The KJV translators included some verses which are CLEARLY MAN-MADE INSERTIONS, well-intentioned in some cases, but God’s Word does NOT need our help! The video’s rantings are like listening to a fourth grader critique Einstein’s physics. His ignorance is glaring but his pride and anger is downright sad and disturbing.

    Most of my first year seminary students were fully capable of dismissing the very old but lame rants of the gentleman in the video. They either learned the reasons behind the KJV translators’ errors during their Bible college studies or simply read from the many excellent books published on the topic.

    As I said, considering the year (1611), God used the KJV translators to do a very good job when one actually examines the poor texts they had available to them. (They had a handful at most. Today we have thousands. And far better knowledge of the lexicography and grammar necessary for quality translation.) It saddens me that I have to point out the flaws in the KJV because it truly was a good effort for the times. But to pretend that the KJV was better than our Bibles today defies any standard of common sense and sound scholarship. We should praise God that he chose to make available to us better and better manuscripts and language tools. If the KJV translators could see what is available to us today, they would be furious and frustrated to see people still virtually “worshipping” the 1611 KJV as if it were an idol never to be better translated in the modern tongue that people can better understand.

    Phariseeism did not disappear after the first century. The man in the video reminds us of just how strong is the carnal desire to love MAN-MADE TRADITIONs. He never gives a solid reason for his belief that the KJV is superior. He simply names it the ultimate standard and then pretends that any differences in modern translations must surely be evil.

    • Dear Professor Tertius,
      I very much appreciate your comment and wish I had more time to explain. Ironically I was already working on a response to the person who I recommended this video to and have already remarked (in my drafted comment in progress) about how I don’t agree with everything in that video. I had hoped that he would watch it so I could get his response before explaining, but he hasn’t watched it yet so we haven’t been able to discuss it. If we had, I would have made clear that I don’t endorse the views of the pastors, nor do I agree of the “KJV only” stance. The portion of the video that I wanted to discuss the most was the part on historical changes someway before the mid-point of the documentary. But to explain, the reason that I shared this video particularly with him was to show that there HAS been a history of changes in the Biblical text, and as you noted, some portions were taken out because they were later added, and so on. Also as you noted, some parts did contain errors so not everything is perfectly clear cut. I also wanted to discuss with him how these changes in definition of certain words can sometimes be based on a revealing of new evidence and good historical documentation. Namely, that what I’m attempting here on my website is not to slander the Text, but rather dig deeper for the original meaning, as it’s possible to learn new things about the original intent of what is written in the Bible.

      Perhaps I should have made myself more clear of my purpose in sharing this. Overall, I feel that each translation has it’s merits, but other parts lacking. I think we can agree that there is not a single translation that is perfect to the original text which I’m sure you’ve found through your years of study.

      As far as pastor Anderson partially, his arrogance is quite obvious to me and I do not believe it’s a conspiracy and feel it’s actually spiritually dangerous to label any Bible translation as “evil.” So I did not wish to align myself with these gentleman (God forbid!), only make some points based on their mention of the historical changes in the Bible. (The only point in which I feel this pastor has some brilliant ideas is related to his interpretation of the book of Revelation, but this is not noted in this particular video. But I should note publicly that I also do NOT agree with all points in this either, especially his anti-Semitic view. But I find his pre-wrath rapture theory and his breakdown of the order of the 7 scrolls, trumpets and bowls/viles fascinating and worth consideration.)

      So anyhow, my point in sharing was just to show that changes HAVE been made through the years, as the commenter that I was showing this to appeared to think otherwise and that any differing ideas regarding translation compared to other available versions were evil. But that’s a whole other story! Anyway, thank you very much for your comment and I appreciate hearing from a seasoned Bible scholar. 🙂
      Your sister in Christ,
      Moanti

      • Christian57 says:

        Moanti,

        Thank you, please hurry to publish my last comment, and as you are preparing a reply to me, I kindly request you to edit out any “thelogical” arguments you probably are working on writing, and adress those to leading “scholars” authorities which are actually open for debate on this subject matter, such as the Dr Robert Gagnon.

        I clearly expressed and state it one last time, I am not interested in such debate any longer by any means, I assume to have been there and done that, through and through with you, so you must understand this time is over and finished, bygone.

        What I exclusively want to know and ask is, could you come to terms with the personal issues you were holding against me, my person as I believe to have done everything within my humble ability to help you shift this problem from personal to general, from emotional to rational levels, proving I have not dealt with you with partiality contrary to your misjudgment, my similar caution adressed to John R which is not identifying as one “homosexual”, and him not “publishing Bible studies” standing and disproving every one of your claimed charges…

        Thank you!

      • John R says:

        Hi Christian57,

        No debates on theological issues here :). I just wanted to say that I don’t think you should recommend that any Christian NOT publish whatever research they have been working on.

        For example, Catholics and Protestants have been at theological odds for centuries. For the longest time, Catholics didn’t even consider Protestants as true Christians, and essentially said “you’re going to hell for not believing our truth.” Recently, the Catholics have reversed that opinion and they now say Protestants are simply estranged brothers in Christ, and that they will simply agree to disagree. Perhaps in cases like these, we should do the same.

        Personally, I think this about truth. God’s truth is infallible and perfect and absolute, meaning there’s only one right answer to theological issues. However! All we can know of God’s truth are our interpretations of His word, which will always be subject to our own biases and errors in judgement. No one would ever disagree if we all knew the one truth. The problem is, we tend to all believe that our personal beliefs are closer to the one spiritual truth than others. This is what we mean when we say “I’m right and they’re wrong.” We mean “I believe my interpretations are closer to God’s truth than theirs.” And to some degree, we can judge which interpretations ARE better by the fruits that they produce. It wasn’t so long ago that most white southerners thought the Bible told them slavery was okay. That interpretation’s fruits led to harm for generations of slaves and a resentment that is still present to some degree even today.

        Not one single denomination of Christianity agrees on every issue. Yet we would consider that Presbyterians and Baptists and 2nd Day Adventist are all equally good ways to get to heaven, right? They would all say their truth is the “best” truth, but no one can say for sure but God.

        If God Himself speaks to you out of a burning bush or an angel, then we can safely say “This is absolute truth.” Otherwise, what we get out of the Bible comes from interpretation of an ancient set of sometimes contradictory manuscripts that we have translated into an imperfect tongue.

        So when you and I and Moanti all have disagreements on certain issues, I think that, after the debating is all done, we should simply treat the issue as Paul says to treat vegetarians and meat eaters. The vegetarians eat no meat to serve God, while the meat eaters eat meat because they think God is fine with it. Both are serving God in their own way, so why bother arguing about it? And to be clear, the vegetarians wouldn’t eat meat because they considered it as idol worship. Even when sin is in the picture, if someone doesn’t consider something as sinful, let God be the judge after you’ve tried to convince them.

        So I will absolutely publish my research and put it out there, because I believe God spoke to me and set me on this course of action, and no one is in a position to tell me with absolute authority that my interpretations are wrong. If you disagree, then I have no issues with that. It’s your faithfulness to your beliefs that is important.

      • Well said John R! 🙂 By the way, have you learned anything new lately? I’m always interested in your Biblical research!

      • John R says:

        Hi Moanti!

        Thank you. I am always worried that the way I phrase things isn’t very clear, like your writing is, so I’m actively working on that.

        As far as new studies, I haven’t really had much time during the school year to research in depth like I could during the summer. However I have discovered a few tidbits.

        One of them has to do with abortion. So feel free to disagree with what I’m about to say, as I’m not even sure what I think of this. Basically, the issue with abortion isn’t whether God permits the killing of babies, cause he doesn’t. The big debate is WHEN exactly does God consider a fetus to become a human. Scientists mostly all agree that the best working definition that we have today is that a fetus can be classified as human when the brain starts making human-like brain patterns, which is around the 2nd trimester. This is contrary to what pro life proponents say, which is that life begins at conception.

        Without even going into the Bible verses pertenant to the discussion, there’s one fact that I found very interesting in the discussion, and that is that, if life truly does begin right at conception, then God sees fit to destroy 3 out of 4 zygotes before they ever get a chance to implant and develop into a fetus. That’s way more “deaths” than abortion has ever come close to! And that’s with people who aren’t on birth control or anything. 3 out of 4 fertilized eggs simply don’t grow to maturity and/or implant on the uturus wall, and so they aren’t really classified as fetuses even.

        So what did the ancient Israelites think about this issue? We tend to get told that the only verse about abortion is Jeremiah 1:5. which says “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you werre born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” Which seems to imply that every zygote is a person in God’s mind, but again, why would God see fit to allow 3/4ths of those zygotes to die then?

        Though the Israelites never had any direct laws pertenant to abortion, there is a law about what happens if a man strikes a pregnant woman and causes a miscarriage/early birth.

        Exodus 21:22-25
        If men fight and hit a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely (some translations say miscarriage), but there is no serious injury, he will surely be punished in accordance with what the woman’s husband demands of him, and he will pay what the court decides. But if there is serious injury, then you will give a life for a life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

        So first off, this verse is following the principle of an eye for an eye. Now that we are in the New Covenant, Jesus advises us that we should simply turn the other cheek. However, this verse is either supporting the idea that abortion is okay, or condemning it, depending on a few key translational/interpretational issues.

        Many Jewish scholars take this verse to mean that the baby was miscarried, meaning it was born dead. And so, they also say that the man who caused the injury would only be punished if the woman was injured or killed due to the premature birth. In this interpretation, it seems that the unborn child is not considered to really be a person, as punishment was only levied if the woman was injured.

        On the other hand, if we translate “yada” to mean “come forth,” rather than miscarry, this verse is simply talking about ANY early birth, whether the child lives or not. And so, the phrase “if there is serious injury” would apply to both the woman and the unborn child. Thus, if the man caused the woman to miscarry, they would consider the dead child to be a life for a life situation, and the man would be killed in return, implying that the unborn child is in fact a human. This view is explained well here: http://www.str.org/articles/what-exodus-21-22-says-about-abortion#.Vi0pdyMo7qA

        So there’s an unspoken question to both of these views: Were the Israelites thinking of a very late pregnancy where the baby LOOKED like a human, or would they have included the very non-human looking fetuses in early pregnancy as well? Without any clues, it’s hard to say, though personally, I want to say that their general rule was “The more human it looked, the harsher the punishment.” Why would say that God might agree? Because of the zygote thing. If God truly hates the murder of every zygote because you are a human from conception, then why in the world did he make it so hard for the zygotes to implant naturally?

        Edit: I was wrong on the statistics. It’s about 1 out of every 2 zygotes fails to implant. Still a pretty large number of natural “deaths.” If you are on birth control, that number becomes 1 out of every 3 zygotes fails to implant and die. You can check the stats here: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/zygotes-lost-with-birth-control-v-without-birth-control.html

        Soooo… what do you think? Should we go with the numbers and scientists and say that a human doesn’t gain a “soul” until about the 2nd trimester? Or with the traditional view that souls are implanted at conception? If so, there will be billions of lost children populating heaven that no one was even aware of.

        I’ll write more later perhaps as these things pop up. What I’ve had to deal with personally is the fact that the conservative church is STILL using scare tactics to keep people from voicing dissenting opinions. You’ve likely had that happen to you. My facebook feed is filled with friends and family disagreeing with my politics and religious views, and some of the more distant relatives even say things like “It sounds like you don’t even believe in God.” That is a blatant scare tactic. What she was essentially saying was “If you don’t believe what I believe, then you must be of the Devil and not a true Christian. Better conform before you go to hell!” So the biggest truth I’ve discovered recently is what I’ve posted earlier. That the truth is absolute, but we are not priviledged enough to say that our own personal interpretations are absolutely the most true of all.

        Also, I’m more and more convinced that the verses in Leviticus are talking about men sleeping with a woman’s husband, not another man in general. The phrase “lyings/beddings of a woman” has a precedent for being a colloquialism for “the sex partner who beds with a woman.” As in, “you have been in the beddings of my father!” So I think the Hebrews simply didn’t want gay people to mix with heterosexual married folks, which is much more reasonable a request, I think.

        Anyway, let me know what you think!

        P.S. Good news. I am a trombonist and am still looking for a job. But last weekend, I made the finals in a big audition for the San Antonio symphony! So I’m close.

      • Hello John!
        Thanks for sharing your research… This is quite fascinating and is probably the only other topic that might be as heatly debated as homosexuality in the Bible! So I’ve taken a very close look at this passage and here’s a few things that stand out to me. First I’ll give the partial verse I’m referring to so its easier to reference. As a direct Interlinear translation based on Bible hub, it says in Exodus 21:22: “ and if / quarrel / men / and hurt / a woman / with child / so that departs / her fruit (child) / and not / follow [from her] / mischief (harm)….”

        I think you’re right that the biggest thing to look at in this verse is the meaning of yatsa (יָצָא). (As a side note. You said “yada,” but this is “to know,” so I think you meant yatsa, which ironically autocorrected to yada before I changed it! Ha!) With 1,069 occurrences and many different defined translations of what the word even means, it makes it more difficult. But it would seem that all the various meanings tend to surround someone going forth or coming out. So I wouldn’t really necessarily think that this means that the baby is always dead, but rather that baby has come out of the pregnant woman prematurely. There is actually a word that is directly related to dead children or miscarriage, which is shakol (שָׁכֹל.) In Exodus 23:26, it talks about miscarried babies, and the word used is messakelah (מְשַׁכֵּלָ֥ה). This is under the same Strong number 7921. This root word is also related to bereaving dead children, but often translated “miscarriage” or “abort.” Messakelah is an interesting word when I referenced it against the Hebrew letter meanings that I shared with you before. It basically means Blood, destroy/cut, open, yoke/bind, reveal/behold. This does sound like miscarriage or abortion, as the blood (many times in Hebrew seen as “life”), is destroyed and cuts the yoke which is then opened and revealed or beheld. The yoke in this case would seem to be like the binding carriage between mother and child which is cut, hence the life is destroyed and the child is revealed because it has come out from its mothers womb. Anyway, the reason I bring this word up is because it’s NOT used in this verse and would seem a better specific word to be used if the child was born dead every time. With this said, the punishment given could be due to the harm caused upon the mother or the infant it would seem… Also it talks about harm (also translated as “mischief”) which is the Hebrew word אָס֑וֹן. Some think this could mean death, but it’s not the word for death, but rather maveth or muth (מָ֫וֶת.) But we can see by the punishments given that death might have been the result, as it says “a life for a life,” but it also gives other options, so I think this shows there is a degree of injury that could have resulted to either the baby or the mother and the worst being death. But just as you said, many continue to translate this as “miscarriage” which would certainly make one think that the baby is dead and the punishment for that is only a fine of the husbands choosing.

        I guess looking at it overall without regard to the words themselves, it would seem that children were of the highest regard in the Jewish culture under the Old Covenant since procreation was a command to men and infertility was regarded in shame…. So you would think that they would regard the unborn as important. But then we also have commands in the Old Testament not to sacrifice their babies or children to idols, so perhaps this was a temptation? If one thinks of it that way, then young life might not have been so sacred to all of them after all! My point is that it would seem like a “no brainer” not to sacrifice your children, but I guess it was the popular thing to do in those days!

        Regardless, I think you bring up a very interesting point and if it does mean miscarriage of the premature child, then it would seem that a fine is not that drastic and that the mothers life was held in higher regard then the premature baby’s life. But again, at least to me, it would seem that the Hebrew wording suggests that the baby has come out early and there may or may not be harm or death. When the Interlinear says “not / follow [from her] / mischief or harm,” they are totally making an assumption when they insert the words “[from her].” As it could be referring to both the mother and child.

        As a side note, I would suggest that you research all of the different words for child, infant, baby, suckling child, etc. This verse uses yaled (יָ֫לֶד) for child, as the word for “with child” harah (הָרָה֙) is always used in the context of a pregnant woman, so it’s more of an adjective about the mother rather than the baby itself. But if you could find the differences between the context of the word yaled ( יָ֫לֶד) being used against all other words for infants/babies, than this might give a deeper clue of its contextual meaning. If you do this, let me know what you find.

        On another note, are you familiar with the 1st book of Enoch? I know it’s no longer canonized as Scripture (but continues to be in the Bible in parts of Africa), but out of all the extra-Biblical sources out there, I would recommend reading it, as there are around 128 direct quotes within the entire Bible (both Old and New Testament) that use direct wording from the book of Enoch, but only a few that are directly referenced in the Bible as coming from Enoch. It even gives a foreshadowing of Jesus in more dramatic ways than I think any of the Old Testament books do, so the fact that it’s not in the Bible is alarming, but it does say that the book was written “for a remote generation,” far into the future it would seem…(This is likely due to the apocalyptic message that’s also enclosed.) The reason I bring this up is because in Enoch 69:12, it talks about a particular fallen angel that teaches humans how to kill children in the womb (note that all of this is said to have taken place pre-flood.) I wish I had an older translation of this book to see its original words, but the modern translation states, “And the fifth was named Kâsdejâ: this is he who showed the children of men all the wicked smitings …the smitings of the embryo in the womb, that it may pass away…” I’m sure “embryo” wasn’t the original word since it didn’t exist back then, but it definitely seems like it’s talking about this fallen angel teaching humans how to abort their children. I know this time period was before The Law came, but it’s an interesting read none the less and when one looks at the Bible through the lens of Enoch, it would seem that many mass genocide killings that God has been criticized for were not even human men, but the offspring of the fallen angels with human women, referred to in the Bible as the Giants, Nephilim, anakim, and other names…. But I know this is a bit too “science fiction” for many modern Christians to accept. But it’s something worth looking into if your interested in the topic of abortion in ancient times.

        Im happy to hear that you made the big audition! Congrats! I will pray about this because that would be an awesome position! I have quite a few family members that are or were professional classical musicians, so I have a deep appreciation for this. 🙂 Let me know how it goes! I’ve got to go for now… You’re in my prayers!
        Your sister in Christ,
        Moanti

      • Christian57 says:

        Hello,

        Hmmm, excuse me, please read my last few messages, again.

        I specifically have forwarded quotations of my past comments right as they were / are written for “evidence”, clearly, my “warnings” for you people “Biblical” sake had / has nothing to do with “sexual orientation”, nor were / are they even remotely related with “publishing Bible studies” (…?) and had / has all to do with you people relentless activism in endorsing sin, sexual sin within Christianity in this occurence, placing you, yourselves at odds with “God”… Do not turn this to be my action.

        The Biblical God’s definition of Marriage, and exclusively blessed ground for legitimate sexual relationships stands and remains :

        “One Man, with one Woman, becoming one flesh, for one lifetime.”

        Disagree with the Christian on this, and you disagree with Christ… Amen.

        No Moanti, I do not hold any specific translation of Scripture to be “holy” (…?) and other ones to be “evil”, this statement is, again, yet another assumption and wrong, baseless speculation applied to my words and / or person twisting things around out of their actual way, to make me “look bad” and take revenge because my words somehow evoked “bad feelings” to you…

        Well, you will have to excuse me, my words are “normally” warranted by objective Scripture and supported by demonstrable facts, not by “my” subjective, partial interpretation and “anti-gay” imagination. I accepted to bother involving myself here on this blog with you and others, on this topic and issue in my attempt to call and to help, not to condemn, is the reality and the truth. I do not “have” to convince you of my well-meaning, this is the work or the “Holy Spirit”, if you let it… Your perception of my messages do not change their “normally” clearly expressed meaning, nor can one’s perception of Scripture “change” its normally clearly expressed meaning.

        You people will nevertheless have to excuse me for caring and expressing out reasonable and reasoned cautions!

        My single and simple question, Moanti, are “we” clear now, is this solved and sorted out, could you come to terms with your personal issues against me, and move on to the intended general, rational understanding of my messages, I am asking you, yes or no…?

        Please publish and answer to me as soon as possible, understand I have been patient with you for a whole month now to have this sorted out, while witnessing and enduring my word and person twisted around here and there in relation to this issue, my person unjustly equated with an anti-Semite, a racist, a slave-master (…?) a misogynist and what not “just because of” (and this, only I can legitimately claim as far actual “victim status” goes, in this particular situation!) my moral disapproval of sin, among which are definitely included homosexual acts, in total accordance with Biblical Scripture and (my) Christian faith…

        Thank you.

      • You’re welcome, Moanti. I should also say that my post was written quickly without necessarily reading the entire thread in detail, but I can definitely empathize with your situation as “webpage host” in terms of the complications of a discussion thread where many issues are touched upon and it can be difficult for the participants (as well as various readers who jumped in at various points) to keep clear which points are and aren’t embraced in a particular source. Indeed, based on my own experiences with the Bible.and.Science.Forum blog and other venues, I’ve found that I usually need to tediously copy-and-paste specific material (even if I provide a URL to the source) in order to make sure a casual reader on my blog doesn’t attribute to me secondary claims of that source which are part of the package. On topics as complex as these, with every reader bringing along their own knowledge (and lack of knowledge) of the topics involved but in different combinations, it can be extremely difficult to avoid misunderstandings and misperceptions. So I’ve become hesitant to send my readers anywhere else where at least some of the untrained will be overwhelmed and probably misled.

        The gentleman in the video–based on my random browsing within it—is not just pitiably ignorant of most of the topics he broaches, he’s dancing dangerously close to “loon territory”. I say that with great hesitation and thought, but I feel compelled to warn anyone who thinks, “He seems to make a lot of sense”, that that is how mindless propaganda usually works. As propagandists usually do, he substitutes imaginary dangers and escalated fears to make points that he can’t support with solid evidence and logic.

        A reader asked for my opinions on the NKJV and NASB translations (if I recall) and those are good representative examples of different but certainly valid approaches to translation. Specifically, the NKJV translates from the “Majority Text”, that is, the very late Byzantine manuscripts of the Greek New Testament (similar to those used for the 1611 KJV), while the NASB concurs with most other English Bible translations in working from the “eclectic text”, the oldest Greek mss. from not so many years after the Apostles. Probably over 85% of evangelical scholars favor the use of those oldest manuscripts. I’m confident that the 1611 KJV translators would have jumped at the chance to use those older texts but they had what they had. (And, after all, they had to make do with the very few texts available in England at the time, and so many of the best texts would not become available to western scholars until much later.)

        A grew up with the KJV, memorized it, and still find myself “thinking” in KJV scriptures but I have to chuckle a bit whenever I hear people like that pastor pretend that “people understand the KJV English quite well”. No, sir, they only think they do! I have plenty of humorous examples of confident KJV-only advocates and pious church elders display uttering ignorant “explanations” of the dialect with various familiar phrases. (Among my favorites is the “sun-dried [sic] times and divers manners.” Many Bible Belt Sunday School classes habitually assigned a verse to each person in the class, and the resulting impromptu, verse-by-verse “countrified King James commentary” [my term for it] survives in my brain to this day. Many KJV defenders think that words like “thee” and “ye” are words of deferential respect, when, in fact, they are much the opposite: what linguists call the familiar forms, while “you” is the formal. They also think that learning to add “-eth” to various words is all there is to understanding the dialect. They have no idea that words like “awful” and “evil” have undergone major semantic shifts since 1611 such that they only think they are understanding them. (Familiarity does not necessarily mean understanding.)

        As time permits, I hope to work through more of the content on this website and also to update my knowledge of the most recent relevant scholarship. (If I have not recently taken the time to catch up on the Greek lexicography and published scholarship of a particular topic, I usually defer comment until I can. I’m generally familiar with most everything I’ve seen on this website but Biblical Studies is much like the sciences: If I’m not “current” to within the last three years or so, I try to make sure I’m caught up before presuming to critique anything! Unfortunately, not all of my colleagues operate with such caution.)

      • John R says:

        Hello Professor Tertius,

        It sounds like you generally approach controversial topics with great caution and logic. I’d be interested to see what you think of a certain theory I have been researching. I’m actually writing a paper on it right now, but at 150 pages, it’s proving to be a bit more of a project to edit than I originally anticipated. It largely has to do with the historical Israeli beliefs about marriage and how they don’t match up at all with our current definitions. Would you be interested in taking a look at it? As it is quite long, I understand if you’re too busy to go through it.

        Also, what do you think of the word “fornication”? The KJV writers translated porneia as fornication, but from every sissy I’ve read, porneia does not mean what fornication means today. Today, it has taken a very specific meaning: sex between two unmarried persons, whereas if you look at play dictionaries, you’ll see that fornication had a much broader meaning. Basically, it was any illicit sexual activity, so it’s specific application depended on the context. Would you say that “sexual immorality” is a better translation in today’s English?

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